Ming-Ming

Okay, I think I see where the advantages lie now. I do agree with you that backstab is better than KO. I also think the 'times per day" aspect you mentioned is better for Nightblade.

I'm not sure I "get" the concept you're going for with this Nightlord/Nightwarden? Where does it come from in source material?

To my mind, a cleric-thief as a concept would seem to fall more on enhancing the mix of divine and thief abilities, rather than adding new ingredients to the mix. A Priest of Mask, who is required in the source text to be a cleric with thief/rogue levels would seem to be the epitome of such a concept. Similarly the Blackflame Zealots who are cleric-rogue mixtures who worship Kossuth also embody this mix in terms of offensive melee and divine support. I'm scratching my head, trying to figure out what it is exactly that you're shooting for in terms of roleplaying 'concept' of the Realms, role in the party, and synergy of abilities that a Hidden Kit for the cleric-thief would provide? I keep thinking I am not seeing something that you are taking for granted, what am I missing here?

Hrmm.. doesn't seem worth it at this point. Those spells don't do anything to thrill me, so the trade-offs don't seem worthwhile. Maybe if you could explain to me why the benefits are better than just being a flat Cleric-Thief? I just don't get it?

@smoky :

Since the cleric/thief can backstab, what do you think of the following ?

Nightlord

- gains Nightwatcher, Nightwarden, Nightguard Cleric spells
- +15 to Detect Illusions and Find Traps
(screw the Divine Hammer)

- -10 penalty to Max Hitpoints
- -3 AC penalty
- -1 Backstab modifier

I disagree with Smoky.

The half-orc cleric-thief would not be able to take the hidden kit because it's NOT dual classing. Yes, the Half-ORc is the ONLY race capable of being a cleric-thief milti-class from creation onset, but the plot and dialogue limitations quickly reduce the appeal. After all, most of us are not still playing BG2 after 20 years because of the power gaming but because we like the story, the plot, the romances, and the character interactions that new flavor and content create in terms of permutations. Personally I've always felt that it made sense for the Shadow Thieves to have had a possible offer for the PC since they work hand in hand through BG1 and 2. However in regards to your assertions of balance, the only way anyone could get to the ridiculous heights of cheese you mentioned is to 'cheat' with Shadow Keeper or similar tools, in which case they can 'cheat' the game anyhow. Balance is immaterial when examples begin to assume a degree of hacking and modding that essentially bypass all the standard rules. With regards to the Hidden Kits mod, I think that Zyrean has been making some pretty good kits and implementing them, and I have faith that we'd see a fair version of the cleric-thief from this project too.

YAY! I had almost thought this might never see fruition, but I am happy and looking forward to the implementation! What 'concept' will you go for?