21 replies to this topic

[dorotea]

Hi folks!

Since I am not getting much input on the mod lately, I dare ask for help. As you probably know if you are reading this, Redemption mod allows you to convince Jon Irenicus to join your party. As a result the first fight inside the Throne of Bhaal is somewhat less challenging if not outright boring, even though I tried to compensate by summoning additional fallen solar. Still, it is just not the same with Jon fighting for you instead of against. Now, I would appreciate any input on how to make it more interesting. A help from original Ascension designer team would be greatly appreciated, since I want to keep the 'flavor' of the mod intact. I can add minor demons all over the place but somehow it does not click for me... Any suggestions?

[Uther]

What if Melissan summoned in some would-be followers (ex-priests/priestesses of Bhaal); much like the ones seen in the SoA ending movie. I did always wonder what hapened to them.

[dorotea]

Hmm, sounds like fun. I will think about it!

[Kish]

Here's what I would suggest:

Check to see if CharName killed Demogorgon (freeing him to return to the Abyss). If Demogorgon is still imprisoned, CharName gets to fight Bodhi, Imoen, and three Fallen Solars (possibly four Fallen Solars on Insane or two Fallen Solars on Novice, or even two Fallen Solars on Normal and one Fallen Solar on Novice).

If Demogorgon is dead/freed, otoh, CharName gets to fight Bodhi, Imoen, Gaider's Tougher Demogorgon, and one/two Fallen Solars depending on difficulty setting. This would mean 1) most CharNames get Demogorgon at that point, 2) those who chose not to fight him in the first place never have to fight him at all, 3) CharName is rewarded for having taken the Good/less XP-rewarding path with Demogorgon earlier, thereby communicating clearly that leaving Demogorgon imprisoned is the right thing to do, and 4) all Gaider's Tougher Bosses have the chance to show up at some point in Redemption-Ascension.

[dorotea]

Check to see if CharName killed Demogorgon (freeing him to return to the Abyss). If Demogorgon is still imprisoned, CharName gets to fight Bodhi, Imoen, and three Fallen Solars (possibly four Fallen Solars on Insane or two Fallen Solars on Novice, or even two Fallen Solars on Normal and one Fallen Solar on Novice).

/Maketh a little merry dance waving her eyestalks./

Now that sounds like REAL challenge. LOL! Too bad I did not think of it myself! Heh.

I will need to add some rather acerbic comment to Melly's banter and away we go!

Thanks Kish!

I will have thanksgiving holidays to plan this carefully .

/Floats away grinning evilly./

[Hendryk]

Is Demogorgon just a pawn who would have to answer a summons to the Throne? He's the ruler of his own layer so I wouldn't say so. And while he certainly wouldn't mind a bit of revenge, doesn't he risk being destroyed utterly if slain in the Abyss? And if it is requisite to obtain a soul object from his own layer to destroy him completely and forever (something Helm didn't even attempt) a side-trip to D's layer might be indicated so that you get to do two evil gods for the price of one.

[dorotea]

Is Demogorgon just a pawn who would have to answer a summons to the Throne? He's the ruler of his own layer so I wouldn't say so.

May be not the summons but an invitation... I can write a little dialog where Mel offers something really nice for his help. Say you only got his progected image first and then he steps through.

And while he certainly wouldn't mind a bit of revenge, doesn't he risk being destroyed utterly if slain in the Abyss?

Hmm, maketh sense again, but how about bringing him down to say 10% hp, after which fact he turns tail and teleports away cursing?

And if it is requisite to obtain a soul object from his own layer to destroy him completely and forever (something Helm didn't even attempt) a side-trip to D's layer might be indicated so that you get to do two evil gods for the price of one.

It sounds too complicated. And I don't think Mellisan would allow it. After all she wants you done in here inside the ToB, so she can grab the essense.
So, no total destruction for Demigorgon - just a bit of spanking.

[Uther]

I like the sound of this.

[Littiz]

Cool! I don't think that leaving him imprisoned was the "right" thing to do, anyway.
After all, defeating him allows to fully redeem the priests, if you want.

[Daemon]

Is Demogorgon just a pawn who would have to answer a summons to the Throne? He's the ruler of his own layer so I wouldn't say so. And while he certainly wouldn't mind a bit of revenge, doesn't he risk being destroyed utterly if slain in the Abyss? And if it is requisite to obtain a soul object from his own layer to destroy him completely and forever (something Helm didn't even attempt) a side-trip to D's layer might be indicated so that you get to do two evil gods for the price of one.

i thought the throne of bhaal was in hell not the abyss?

[Uther]

I am pretty sure that your pocket plane was supposed to be in the abyss. If your pocket plane was in the abyss, the throne of Bhaal would be as well. Maybe I am incorrect though.

[Daemon]

well thats just the thing i don't know.
but since the main character says
"sarevok diden't i kill you last time i was i hell or something like that i thought we were i hell. otherwise s/he would have said diden't i kill you when i was i hell but i dont know for sure so *shrugs*

[dorotea]

Hi guys!

Sorry for not checking this forum for quite a while. I am still working on fixing the bugs that were found in the second beta, by some kind souls.

As for your discussion, I am pretty positive ToB places your pocket Plane in the Abyss and mentions that you have already been there before. Which indicates that the 'Hell' in the final part of the SoA is actually the Abyss. And it maketh sence, since Baator only has 9 circles and Abyss is infinite so you can place an extra layer without a problem. In any case Bhaal ogirinal Throne was supposed to be in Hades (or Gray Waste?) , but Bio had moved it into the Abyss.

I was always curious how it can be, Murder is a nasty business but hardly chaotic.

In any case - as soon as I am ready with the third beta that will probably have a first version of Demogorgon ( why do I always want to cry 'I am WEASEL when I see that guy? ) I shall post it here.

On the mean time if any of you downloaded the 2 beta and had found something you don't like - please let me know!

[Althernai]

If Demogorgon is dead/freed, otoh, CharName gets to fight Bodhi, Imoen, Gaider's Tougher Demogorgon, and one/two Fallen Solars depending on difficulty setting.

Wow! So this is why you cared about Demogorgon... yikes! This fight is possibly tougher than even Ascension Final (if one is to avoid killing Imoen).

Wait, you mean when he comes in and immediately casts Time Stop and "summon truckload of demons" on arrival? This would require some serious cheese to bypass... then again, you do get Irenicus on your side and it would be worth it if I could permanetly put that worthless monkey out of action.

Hmm... wait a second, yet another reappearance by a major creature. Jcompton where are you?

[Littiz]

If Demogorgon is dead/freed, otoh, CharName gets to fight Bodhi, Imoen, Gaider's Tougher Demogorgon, and one/two Fallen Solars depending on difficulty setting.

wait, there are purists out there...
I play on normal, cause I don't like the doubled damage thing...
yet I'd like to face the smartest monsters, and no facilitations!

[dorotea]

If Demogorgon is dead/freed, otoh, CharName gets to fight Bodhi, Imoen, Gaider's Tougher Demogorgon, and one/two Fallen Solars depending on difficulty setting.

Exciting though it sounds - I have a feeling it will be too cheezy. I like extra cheese - by only on my pizza's!

So I have an alterantive plan. If DG is dead/freed - Mel is so pissed at you for stealing Jon that she summons DG as per Hendryk's suggestion - with a bit of his own ashes she scraped from the floor in the Watcher's keep (yak!) But no extra solars, no sir. 'Just' Bodhi, Immy as Slayer and DG. By the way I think Mel is best qualified to summon DG as it is 1. 'her' domain ( ie Bhaal's throne) 2. she has a priest background 3. judging by the amount of scum she summons later on she is good at summoning demons

Now DG is mad at her, mad at you, and is not happy to find out she had 'lost' Irenicus to you, since she only had Jon 'on loan' from the Abyssal Prince and as an abyssal petitioner he truly belongs to DG

He offers you a deal - hand Jon over and he departs . You can cave in and do so, but your alignment will turn Evil and you end up fighting Jon, Bodhi and the fallen solars anyway

Or you can decline and have Jon on your side vs Bodhi and DG ( and lil Immy).

I am seriously thinking about trimming down even this by making Irenicus yell at Imoen at the very start of the fight and snap her out of the Slayer avatar by just making her mad enough. How does this sound?

Also, I think I will need to add a small break between PC getting Jon in the party and Mel starting to summon DG, so you can 1. save and 2. activate Jon's triggers and contingencies.

Anybody wants to help me script this thing? I can do it by myself but it will take forever.

And don't forget - after you finish DG - you will have to go through another fight at the first essense pool before you can heal/rest. yikes! I wonder if I can put a heal/rest scroll on DG corpse or something...

Finally, killing DG permanently does not sound believable from FR lore side. We can make him go away say for 1000 years or so but as to true death - he is a major player. Then again Orcus was perm-killed and Bane too ( and now both of them are back lol)

[Althernai]

Just a minor suggestion: whatever fight design you decide on in the end, make sure that you yourself can beat it (by that I mean, win without any perma-killed characters) with a well balanced party on at least Core (preferably Insane - you know the scripting inside out, most other people will not).

[dorotea]

Actually you can have Jon and Imoen in the same party in Redemption right now and they do have a few rather funny interactions.

Cheers!

[davidw]

Why not have a return for some of the SOA enemies you vanquished previously - Kangaxx, Firkraag, the Warden, Shangalar, the Unseeing Eye, Torgal, etc.

Admittedly none of them individually would be much of a match for the party at the levels they'd be at by this stage but all of them together might be quite a challenge.

Or maybe a personification of Bhaal himself could turn up to get revenge on you for spoiling Saravok's plans for bringing him back to life.