41 replies to this topic

[Feanor]

Devils and demons are created from the souls of evil people. What about Solars, devas and planetars ? They are created from the souls of good people, perhaps ?

[Bane]

Cyric has a lot of that kind of info in one of his links he put up (too tired to loom )

But I wouldn't be too surprised if they were.

[Erephine]

Devas don't always have to be good. Take Trias for example.

[Feanor]

Devas don't always have to be good. Take Trias for example.

I never heard of Trias, but be careful if she's not a fallen deva.

[Erephine]

It's a he, actually. IIRC he's not fallen, though.

I'm talking about Trias, the betrayer from Planescape Torment.

[Xander77]

Depends upon your definition of Fallen.

Once you start messing with celestial plans and talking about the Father in such tones, you're getting there.

[MERLANCE]

Hmm, for an interesting take on Fallen celestials, take a look at the Sean K. Reynolds book Anger of Angels.

Not canon D&D, but a good book overall

Falling and Redemption
Angels derive their power from devotion to the cause of good or to
a deity. When an angel commits an offense against his deity or his
philosophy, he risks falling from grace and losing some of his
power. (See Chapter Ten: Creatures for templates you can use to
create these unfortunate angels.)

Outcast Angels: If the offense is serious enough and the angel
refuses to atone (whether through simple prayer and penance or by
actually using an atonement spell), the angel falls and becomes an
outcast angel. If the outcast later repents and wishes to return to
full angel status, he must have cast upon him an atonement spell
from a cleric or angel whose cleric level is equal to or greater than
the total HD of the repentant outcast angel. If the angel was originally
a bound angel, the caster must be of the same faith as the
angel was while bound; otherwise, any good cleric or angel can cast
the spell. After atoning, the angel loses the outcast template and
regains all of his previous abilities.

Rebellious Angels: If the outcast refuses to repent and willfully
turns against his faith or cause, he falls even further and gains the
rebellious angel template. (This condition changes the angel?s
alignment from good to neutral if he wasn?t already neutral.) Most
rebellious angels are lost causes, and they either seek out new faiths
or causes or turn to completely selfish interests. The rare rebellious
angel that wishes to return to his former status normally must perform
a quest in service to his original faith or cause to show his loyalty
and desire to return. After the quest is completed, the angel can
receive an atonement from a cleric or angel whose cleric level is five
or more levels greater than that of the repentant rebel (and of the
same faith as the angel was while bound, if the angel was formerly a
bound angel). After atoning, the angel loses the rebellious angel
template, regains his former alignment, and becomes an outcast
angel, at which point he can receive another atonement to lose that
template as well.

Fallen Angels: An angel that embraces evil or corruption and
accepts his most base desires falls completely and becomes a fiend,
gaining the fallen angel template. A truly fallen angel cannot be
saved by an atonement spell alone. Such a being must take drastic
steps on his own to turn from evil and abandon his wicked ways. In
doing so, he casts off the fallen angel template and replaces it with
the rebellious angel template. Once a fallen angel becomes a rebellious
angel (in form, if not in philosophy), he can be redeemed like
any other rebel. Obviously, angels who fall all the way and return to
good standing are very few in number. Perhaps one angel of significance
in any particular faith manages to do so. Fallen angels are
usually haunted by their memories of Heaven and association with
other good creatures. These memories drive them to crueler and
more evil acts in an attempt to smother those thoughts, and they
make a fallen angel a much more evil being than any equivalent
fiend. Those who have tasted the light of goodness and justice and
turned away make the foulest villains.

I would say Trias was in the "Rebellious" stage.

[Bane]

It's kind of stupid that angels can become evil or fallen because demons and devils can't repent and the idea of angels in mainstream religion is that angels unlike men do not have the choice to do evil (the only fallen angel was Satan).

[Deathsangel]

Devils and demons are created from the souls of evil people. What about Solars, devas and planetars ? They are created from the souls of good people, perhaps ?

Don't agree on this if you look to the D&D cosmology.

Demons and Devils have their own spirit. They aren't created by people who had lead a bad live. They rather become lemures, more or less the currency in the lower planes. Or if they really lead a really evil live they become petitioners.

This last part about petitioners is also the same for the people who live good lives and the upper planes.

I can quote a lot to support this, but I don't have the time

[Xander77]

Felstorm - Fiends are as likely to repent as angels are to fall. It's simply a tail we don't hear that often, because it sounds so stupid.

Deathsangel - an evil sould DOES get a chance to advance in ranks - possibly all the way from lemure to pit fiend. Unlikely, to say the least, but possible.

[Andyr]

Trias thought he was doing the right thing, so I wouldn't say he was all the way fallen...

[Deathsangel]

Felstorm - Fiends are as likely to repent as angels are to fall. It's simply a tail we don't hear that often, because it sounds so stupid.

Deathsangel - an evil sould DOES get a chance to advance in ranks - possibly all the way from lemure to pit fiend. Unlikely, to say the least, but possible.

To this I agree, but the most powerfull Demons and Devils were devil from the start (one lord of the nine was an solar though, but that is an exception). Like Asmodeus, I do not believe that he was ever human.

[Shadow Angel]

Deathsangel Posted on Jul 24 2004, 12:51 AM

To this I agree, but the most powerfull Demons and Devils were devil from the start (one lord of the nine was an solar though, but that is an exception). Like Asmodeus, I do not believe that he was ever human.

The Demon Prince Orcus started his existance as a human spellcaster. After his death and larva status he worked his way up the ladder.

Ballzebul, Lord of the Seventh was once the celestial Triel before his fall.

Xander77 Posted on Jul 22 2004, 03:46 AM

Felstorm - Fiends are as likely to repent as angels are to fall. It's simply a tail we don't hear that often, because it sounds so stupid.

Fiends are more likely to kill those that repent then angels are those that fall.

[Feanor]

What's the difference between a deva and a planetar ?

[Shadow Angel]

Basic difference is power. In 2ed pnp an Astral devas range from 12 hit dice and use the equlivalant of a mace of disruption, planetar had 14 hit dice using a +3 2 handed sword while a solar has 22 hit dice, a +5 two handed sword and a +2 longbow with unlimited arrows of slaying. Magical abilities improve also.

Edited by Shadow Angel, 25 July 2004 - 08:42 PM.

[Feanor]

Basic difference is power. In 2ed pnp an Astral devas range from 12 hit dice and use the equlivalant of a mace of disruption, planetar had 14 hit dice using a +3 2 handed sword while a solar has 22 hit dice, a +5 two handed sword and a +2 longbow with unlimited arrows of slaying. Magical abilities improve also.

But, except for the different abilities, they are similar creatures ?

[Shadow Angel]

Devas can work their way up to planetars and on up to solars. Just different levels of advancment.

But, except for the different abilities, they are similar creatures ?

Yes.

[Sillara]

Except they LOOK different.

Sillara

[Bane]

The differences are more apparent in NWN too