102 replies to this topic

[Laufey]

Khadion is a swashbuckler. Shashbucklers are the best fighters of all thief-kits, but still not strong enough to match a real fighter, barbarian, monk or even a paladin or a ranger. His strengh (12 or 14, undecided), won't help Khadion very much in increasing damage. He won't be able to obtain high weapon profs. He won't be able to backstab for more damage.

One of the reasons why I created this mod was because I felt that the game lacks good thieves, which is unfortunate, since you need a thief to complete the game (unless you choose to install the No traps/locked doors-component of Weimers Ease-of-Use). I always had the problem of having weak thiefs, which resulted in either changing Immy to a pure thief or create a multiplayer-NPC. Khadion will fix that problem. He'll probably be the best thief in the game (not counting any other mods), and importantly, he's good-aligned. No other pure thief (counting the mods I know about) is that. But he still won't be as good as a fighter.

When creating the basic idea for Khadion, I concluded that thiefs generally are weak characters. It's probably the weakest class of all (according to me). Khadion won't be able to backstab, since he's a swashbuckler, and he's got a low strengh, compared to a fighter. He won't be able to deal damage like Korgan or Sarevok. But he'll stay alive, due to his dexterity. He'll be a swashbuckler, an acrobatic fighter-type rouge who'll be hard to hit. He won't have the heel of Achilles as all other thieves in the game have: Weak, low HP's, easy to kill for the opponents. You won't need to protect him (as I have been forced to do with other thieves), he can take care of himself. He won't kill as many enemies as your fighters or mages, but he won't make you feel "Oh, dammit, I have this lousy thief which takes one of my 5 precious slots, when I'd rather have <insert another NPC here>, but I can't since I need this worthless thief to finish the game".

Hm...having read the previous posts, I thought I'd put in my two cents. One of my current PC:s is a human Swashbuckler, with Dex of 18. Very efficient character, can definitely hold his own in a fight, and isn't a helpless baby who needs constant protection. So really, the 20 Dex isn't necessary for the NPC to be worthwhile using in the game.

And also, while I can understand the temptation to make the NPC the best and baddest there is, I have to say that seeing those stats put me off from downloading it, rather than tempt me. Now, it's your mod of course, and it's your decision to make, and I'm not saying this to be mean in any way. I won't try to convince you further than this post. It's just that I think it's a bit of a shame, for all I know this may well be a wonderful NPC that won't get downloaded because the stats hint at a 'Mary Sue'.

Anyway, good luck to you, not matter what your decision is.

[the bigg]

Well, if it's to protect him, 20 DEX is exactly the same (for AC, that is ) as 18.
Coran isnt' the only one NPC with a natural 20: Kagain (a fighter dwarf you met in Beregost) had a 20 CON (which has its effects, since he will regenerate 1HP every 6 rounds), while Alora (Halfling Thief you found in BG city) has 12 91 11, or something like this, is at 8th level, has put all of her points in Pick Pockets, has a grad total of 16 HPs (counting the 8 at starting level), so it isn't true that "Coran is overpowered because he is a late character"

Really, don't let the stats bother that much you. Kagain had 16 12(?) 20, yet Minsc (18/93 15 15 back in BG1) was a much better fighter, wasn't he? And Minsc has a 69 stat sum, yet he is a helluva character as much as Sarevok (96)

Edited by the bigg, 06 July 2004 - 12:21 AM.

[SConrad]

Hm...having read the previous posts, I thought I'd put in my two cents. One of my current PC:s is a human Swashbuckler, with Dex of 18. Very efficient character, can definitely hold his own in a fight, and isn't a helpless baby who needs constant protection. So really, the 20 Dex isn't necessary for the NPC to be worthwhile using in the game.

As tb says, 20 in dexterity isn't a lot better than 18. I've set dexterity to 20, for the sole purpose that I wan't his stats to show that he's got superhuman dexterity. The 20 doesn't improve him much more than 18 would have done.

And also, while I can understand the temptation to make the NPC the best and baddest there is, I have to say that seeing those stats put me off from downloading it, rather than tempt me. Now, it's your mod of course, and it's your decision to make, and I'm not saying this to be mean in any way. I won't try to convince you further than this post. It's just that I think it's a bit of a shame, for all I know this may well be a wonderful NPC that won't get downloaded because the stats hint at a 'Mary Sue'.

As I've previously said, the stats will be slightly altered.

Oh, I am dealing on a part-time basis with Coran whose stats are:

14 20 12 14 9 16

Ie, very similar distribution and similar attitude. Those are the things I considered for Coran at one time and have not had time to implement, because I wanted a brighter, more practical show of his character, than banter alone.

As you say, similar attitude and about the same stats. So, do you consider Coran overpowered, compared to Khadion (keep in mind that Khadion's charisma will be reduced to 18).

Well, if it's to protect him, 20 DEX is exactly the same (for AC, that is  ) as 18.
Coran isnt' the only one NPC with a natural 20: Kagain (a fighter dwarf you met in Beregost) had a 20 CON (which has its effects, since he will regenerate 1HP every 6 rounds), while Alora (Halfling Thief you found in BG city) has 12 91 11, or something like this, is at 8th level, has put all of her points in Pick Pockets, has a grad total of 16 HPs (counting the 8 at starting level), so it isn't true that "Coran is overpowered because he is a late character"

You really want to be worshipped, right? Because you've managed to succeed to the point where you're going the divine way, from my point of view.

[Littiz]

Ok, my last reply on the issue

charisma will be reduced to 18

Doesn't it sound a little weird?
"Reduced" to the theorical maximum?
Quite the oxymoron, in my book

Again, talkin' strictly about numbers.
A perfectly average man would be something like that:
10
10
10
11
11
11

Actually to "balance" a *single* 20 you'd need a stat at... one!!!!
Why doesn't any modder give a grand ONE to a stat?
Following Domi's example, how would it translate in actual game situations, say, a Wisdom of 1?
What would that mean, the wisdom of an infant maybe? Less?
Well, we should consider 0 as the value for no cognitive activity, no brain at all, so...
(Or is it lready 3 the correct value for an infant, since it's meant to be the minimum?)

The game is built on this scale. I'll admit, it's not a very thick scale, a range from 3 to 18 can't say that much.
But I think it's still easy to interpret what the limits look like, and it seems to me that it is too often forgotten in the forums.
A character with such uber stats wouldn't feel "alive" for me, it'd always look like a hack.
I'll be on own now, promised

Edited by Littiz, 06 July 2004 - 11:54 AM.

[Laufey]

Hm...having read the previous posts, I thought I'd put in my two cents. One of my current PC:s is a human Swashbuckler, with Dex of 18. Very efficient character, can definitely hold his own in a fight, and isn't a helpless baby who needs constant protection. So really, the 20 Dex isn't necessary for the NPC to be worthwhile using in the game.

As tb says, 20 in dexterity isn't a lot better than 18. I've set dexterity to 20, for the sole purpose that I wan't his stats to show that he's got superhuman dexterity. The 20 doesn't improve him much more than 18 would have done.

It was the superhuman thing I was reacting against, not that he would be all that more of a fighter in game terms. It may be that you have an excellent explanation for how come he has these stats - and in that case, good for you.

As for Kagain and Coran, I think their Con and Dex should have been left at 19, which is the top level for dwarves and elves in those respective stats. Either that, or have been given some sort of background info that explained the 20 stat.

[SConrad]

I failed to understand your argument.  The first sentence is convoluted and boils down to the statement: "there are other NPCs that have high stats in BG1, not just Coran" - which is true. The second pharse is not logically connected to the first one. Please, clarify.

I think he meant that Alora, with a HP of 16, isn't overpowered, though you get her late in the game. Which suggest that your theory of late NPC's in BGII being overpowered is untrue.

But I see no reason to argue the point over and over. It's not the end of the world, you know, and you do not need to satisfy Littz or Domi or anybody else, but yourself when you are creating a mod. It's your character - have that DEX at 20, and have fun!

Sure, it's my mod. But I want you to play it and tell me it's great (hopefully). Therefore, I consider your opinions very valuable. If you don't want to play the mod because of the attributes (which is before you even get the chance to try him), then I have a problem. If it was only one person feeling this way, I'd probably ignore it, but this seems to be a public opinion (the majority, at least). Which means that I have an even larger problem.

I've been arguing with myself (well, not literrary...) about the stats. Some part of me want to change it, I wouldn't call it to please the mob, but something in that direction. Another part of me want to keep the stats, since they actually have a meaning. I've been considering this forwards and backwards for quite some time. I've even tried to work out a solution where lowering dexterity won't do anything to the plot (don't know if that idea is better or worse than the original one)...

I've been giving you arguments for keeping the stats, but you don't seem to find them acceptable, which has made me doubt even more.

So, I have a question. Domi (who are the one argumenting most against me), would you consider reading a PM containing spoiler-information about the mod, and firstly, suggest stats, and secondly, tell me what you think of the idea overall (according to your over-used-mod-ideas-thing). That way, I'll get a second opinion on the matter, and (not to forget) get a response to the plot. Please?

[SConrad]

I think if stats are giving you so much trouble - the best solution is to leave it be for now, and write the mod. Otherwise it's a bit unproductive. You can change stats on your cre at any time.

I'll probably do that.

I will gladly peer-review the concept, but it will be one person's opinion. I can only say if I like or do not like it and explain why. But I (and nobody else for that matter) cannot do any predictions if people will play the mod. Heck, I thought BG1NPC will have 80 dls maximum.

Sure thing, I'll PM you either in a few hours or tomorrow.

[Briannandoah]

Some thoughts...

You point out that Khadion is very charismatic around ladies, and that they like him a lot. Still I find that with his character (erratic, easy to loose his temper), he would not have the patience to make a woman feel good about herself, and while he looks good and might know a few tricks (well you get my meaning I guess), I still think women usually do not like men with little boy's minds in that sense. (Yeah and please do not start the issue all men being overgrown boys ).

I guess what I am trying to say here is, that it is not only the charisma that will make a man popular around women. It might work for a while, but not in the long run. Unless you think women in Athkatla either have no experience of men at all, or use young Khadion only as a play thing, and then let him go .

And yes this comes to that WIS thing again. I can understand why it is 6, and I am not arguing against it. I just wondered if a man with WIS 6 really would be that popular around women, even though his charisma is as high as 20? Or maybe it really is the thing, that he first is, until they find out his erratic side?

[BobTokyo]

And yes this comes to that WIS thing again. I can understand why it is 6, and I am not arguing against it. I just wondered if a man with WIS 6 really would be that popular around women, even though his charisma is as high as 20? Or maybe it really is the thing, that he first is, until they find out his erratic side?

It's the "good girls love bad boys" thing. From his character sketch, he's probably very popular with naive women and women looking for a fling, and unatractive to those seeking a longer term relationship.

[Deathsangel]

From one modder to another.

18 charisma does seem okay to me. Being steph son of famous person, being handsome and having a nice tongue, can surely increase the stat to such point.

I do not agree with a long ago post of the Bigg. You shouldn't look at what the stat number does on itself. 20 Dex is beyond any, except for Chaonds, humanoid mortal. Besides dex 20 does make a big difference for thief abilities in comparison to 18.

Another way to look at it can also be if it doesn't make to much difference why not change it? If it pleases so many more people it might make your mod better.

I would also advice to bring up wisdom. In my mod mod I also add three NPC's of which one is nuts. He has 16 INT and 8 WIS. He is also a fruitcake with sometimes a stroke of wisdom. If you really want him totally to be a nutball make it WIS 7. If you wish him still to be naive, but not crazy give him WIS 9. As comparsion look to for example Minsc, who really is somewhat crazy (which is common sense thus Wisdom), the naive Yoshimo and so on. And just as some other people said combining a low wis with a high cha is somewhat problematic, though cha is not only based on who much the public likes you (or one sex), but can also be of fear. Kido has WIS 8 en CHA 15 and that is the max I think.

True it is your mod and you will always be the one to say if something happens or not. But trust me, if the mod is more logical and more people play it, you will be a lot more proud about it aswell.

I think it would be wise to lower his cha en dex and raise his wis.

The plot can have influence of course, but you know that BG2 uses AD&D2 rules. In those rules a nymph can be deadly by her beauty, her CHA is 19. This way you also ought to look at DEX. Perhaps he has read a manual of dexterity, but that still makes his dex 19, not 20.

Edited by Deathsangel, 08 July 2004 - 03:54 AM.

[Briannandoah]

It's the "good girls love bad boys" thing. From his character sketch, he's probably very popular with naive women and women looking for a fling, and unatractive to those seeking a longer term relationship.

Ah well, maybe I am too old (and maybe not that naive and good girl anymore *g*).

I did thought of that though, but to me if he really is that charismatic with ladies, his wisdom should be little higher. Allthough it might be that I misunderstand here the concept of the WIS stat alltogether. And oh yes, he might be charming to those women seeking only a one nite stand, but how many of those there are? Or at least from other threads here I have had the idea that the free love thing is not that usual in Faerun. I might be wrong here also, since I really do not know AD&D world that much. Only the impression I've had here, and from some other discussion boards, and I've thought that there are people who know more than I do, perhaps?

And if he is having affairs with women who already have a boyfriend or a man, then he needs more than his good looks to charm these ladies, I think. Unless they happen to be really desparate or their man happens to be really old, ugly or disgusting...

But only my 2 cents worth, I think.

Edited by Briannandoah, 08 July 2004 - 04:50 AM.

[BobTokyo]

But only my 2 cents worth, I think.

Your 2 cents are valid.

Personally I think that the lady-killer young idiot type has enough of a tradition in movies, genre fiction and comedy to be worth using in a mod (even if the first image that comes to mind is Sir Flashhart from Black Adder). Have you ever read The Evolution of Desire: Strategies of Human Mating? It's not great quality research by any means, but there's a lot of data to back up the idea that emotional maturity is very low on the list of qualities looked for by women in search of short term affairs (the "cads versus dads" theory).

Long term relationships are a different issue.

[Briannandoah]

Have you ever read The Evolution of Desire: Strategies of Human Mating?

Nope I don't think so. In fact I kind of stopped reading those "half-scientific" books when I was about 25 or something . I had my fare share of them up til then though. But since I've read something like that from our national science magazine quite recently, I guess you are right. Only in this context in my mind the using part is then the women, not the man . But hey, it is still being popular around women, isn't it *lol*. Maybe I just would like to think that women use their brains more... (yeah, as if - I myself, of course never look the outside *g*).

When I wrote the earlier texts though, I very much poundered the meaning of stats in the game. I still am doing it. I am the one who sees no conflict in the high stats, but I might be the last person to say it, since I always try to get the highest possible score to my characters in the game. I never settle lower than 17 for DEX f.ex. and the same goes with CHA. And depending on the class, I try to get the appropriate stats also as high as possible. Yes, it takes a lot of clicking, because I don't cheat. I've had characters, which don't have any stat belowe 10, and the highest ones still are 17 or 18 (or 19 in DEX if my pc is an elf).

The thing is that this is a computer game, and though it is supposed to be roleplaying, it never reaches the level of a good table top gaming. So to me these stats aren't that important in this game as they would be in table top gaming. I just try to get the game going with the easiest possible way, and that is giving my pc the best possible stats (and keeping the game in the easier levels). Because I am not fan of tough battles etc. (except when I play Diablo II, but that is another story and another game). But since I tend to focus on character creation in table top gaming, so I do the same in BGI and BGII, although much of it has to be in my mind only. This is why I began to think of the WIS stat here and the possibble controversy with it and Khadion's relationship with women. But since it is true, that you don't need the WIS for short liaisons, it might be allright to have such a low stat in it.

I hope someone has understood something I was trying to say .

Edited by Briannandoah, 08 July 2004 - 08:03 AM.

[SConrad]

And yes this comes to that WIS thing again. I can understand why it is 6, and I am not arguing against it. I just wondered if a man with WIS 6 really would be that popular around women, even though his charisma is as high as 20? Or maybe it really is the thing, that he first is, until they find out his erratic side?

It's the "good girls love bad boys" thing. From his character sketch, he's probably very popular with naive women and women looking for a fling, and unatractive to those seeking a longer term relationship.

Bob's got it right. Besides, the reason why I wanted to give him 20 in charisma was because he have a supernatural (or unnatural is probably a better term) skill in charming/manipulating/seducing everyone. So he (altough it sounds unlikely) can under the skirt of even the most intelligent women, just by looking them deep into the eyes, or something.

I do not agree with a long ago post of the Bigg. You shouldn't look at what the stat number does on itself. 20 Dex is beyond any, except for Chaonds, humanoid mortal. Besides dex 20 does make a big difference for thief abilities in comparison to 18.

Another way to look at it can also be if it doesn't make to much difference why not change it? If it pleases so many more people it might make your mod better.

I would also advice to bring up wisdom. In my mod mod I also add three NPC's of which one is nuts. He has 16 INT and 8 WIS. He is also a fruitcake with sometimes a stroke of wisdom. If you really want him totally to be a nutball make it WIS 7. If you wish him still to be naive, but not crazy give him WIS 9. As comparsion look to for example Minsc, who really is somewhat crazy (which is common sense thus Wisdom), the naive Yoshimo and so on. And just as some other people said combining a low wis with a high cha is somewhat problematic, though cha is not only based on who much the public likes you (or one sex), but can also be of fear. Kido has WIS 8 en CHA 15 and that is the max I think.

True it is your mod and you will always be the one to say if something happens or not. But trust me, if the mod is more logical and more people play it, you will be a lot more proud about it aswell.

I think it would be wise to lower his cha en dex and raise his wis.

The plot can have influence of course, but you know that BG2 uses AD&D2 rules. In those rules a nymph can be deadly by her beauty, her CHA is 19. This way you also ought to look at DEX. Perhaps he has read a manual of dexterity, but that still makes his dex 19, not 20.

It's not a question about nuts or being naive. It's a completely different matter. Khadion is intelligent, but he's erratic. He can't focus on anything for long. Sure, he can be naive sometimes, but he's not entirely grown up (look who's talking, I'm younger than him!), so I'll blame the age for being naive. He hasn't found the "inner peace" required for high wisdom. I might be wrong, but to me, knowledge about yourself is an requirement for being wise. If you know your strengh, sure, thats wise, but if you know your weaknesses, that's even wiser. I believe that you cannot be wise, unless you have that "inner peace", knowledge about who you are.

About the dex, I will probably decrease that as well. Everybody seems to go mad about it, and Domi still don't think that his background justifies 20 in dex. Okay, I'll change it. It'll still be high, and I will increase strengh to compensate.

[Briannandoah]

Bob's got it right. Besides, the reason why I wanted to give him 20 in charisma was because he have a supernatural (or unnatural is probably a better term) skill in charming/manipulating/seducing everyone. So he (altough it sounds unlikely) can under the skirt of even the most intelligent women, just by looking them deep into the eyes, or something.

I had to go and look his alignment when I read this. Chaotic Good? Wouldn't Chaotic Neutral be more appropriate then, if he does this often? Or is it that he don't know what he is doing, and thinks it is just his normal charms he gets all the women? But this explains a bit, though.

I am not so sure if I want to have such a "charming" person in my party. If my pc is a man, he wants to be the one under every skirt . And if it is a she, umm, it wouldn't be very nice to wake up one morning beside Khadion and wonder what the heck I am doing here . Not to mention that if he would do that to Jaheira or Viconia... you got my point there, eh . (This was a joke, BTW).

Ok, I got the picture. Which brings me to the thing, you haven't answered yet do you like the one I made, or want some more changes yet? Please go to the Sol Ek Sa thread to answer.

[BobTokyo]

Not to mention that if he would do that to Jaheira or Viconia... you got my point there, eh . (This was a joke, BTW).

This is another joke that could make for a great moment in-game, never with Jaheira (in theory Harpers are immune to charm) but with Nalia or Vic.

No need for it to be explicit either. One dialog where he hits on one or both of them and gets rejected, then a follow up dialog implying that something occured, with appropriate death threats if he doesn't shut up right now.

Or maybe a morning after scene in a tavern, with Khadion complaining that he drank until he blacked out the night before and Korgan acting surprisingly friendly . . .

[SConrad]

Not to mention that if he would do that to Jaheira or Viconia... you got my point there, eh . (This was a joke, BTW).

This is another joke that could make for a great moment in-game, never with Jaheira (in theory Harpers are immune to charm) but with Nalia or Vic.

No need for it to be explicit either. One dialog where he hits on one or both of them and gets rejected, then a follow up dialog implying that something occured, with appropriate death threats if he doesn't shut up right now.

Or maybe a morning after scene in a tavern, with Khadion complaining that he drank until he blacked out the night before and Korgan acting surprisingly friendly . . .

How come I always laugh when I read Bob's replies?

I had to go and look his alignment when I read this. Chaotic Good? Wouldn't Chaotic Neutral be more appropriate then, if he does this often? Or is it that he don't know what he is doing, and thinks it is just his normal charms he gets all the women? But this explains a bit, though.

Well, I might have exaggarated a bit. Sure, he's got unnatural charming-options, but not as he can charm the whole world with a quick look with his eyes.

I am not so sure if I want to have such a "charming" person in my party. If my pc is a man, he wants to be the one under every skirt  . And if it is a she, umm, it wouldn't be very nice to wake up one morning beside Khadion and wonder what the heck I am doing here  . Not to mention that if he would do that to Jaheira or Viconia... you got my point there, eh  . (This was a joke, BTW).

He won't do that to the female PC. He respects her too much. The male PC, do have the option to express jealousy. But the results of that conversation is a BIG spoiler.

[disguise]

So... Wich mods are khadion compatible with...?


excuse my enlish....im from sweden