102 replies to this topic

[the bigg]

Just to defend the 20 dex :
18: +4 AC, +2 Missile thac0
19: +4 AC, +3 Missile thac0
20: +4 AC, +3 Missile thac0
21: +5 AC, +4 Missile thac0

It's not that big deal, especially considering that as a swashbuckler he will be more a melee-er than a missile thrower...
BTW: Coran has 20 dex, and there's a mod that will give you Coran as a joinable-NPC (I think it's Desecration of Souls...) so it could be worthwhile to increase dex to 21

[SConrad]

Just to defend the 20 dex :
18: +4 AC, +2 Missile thac0
19: +4 AC, +3 Missile thac0
20: +4 AC, +3 Missile thac0
21: +5 AC, +4 Missile thac0

It's not that big deal, especially considering that as a swashbuckler he will be more a melee-er than a missile thrower...
BTW: Coran has 20 dex, and there's a mod that will give you Coran as a joinable-NPC (I think it's Desecration of Souls...) so it could be worthwhile to increase dex to 21

You're my hero. Really...

Not only defending me in times of trouble, but also suggest I actually increase the dexterity!

And Coran is an elf and they have a maximum of 19. I don't recall him being a demi-god or a Bhaalspawn either.

[Littiz]

Please, take the following as friendly as possible (actually I'm trying to give my opinion and my personal advice being the mod in an early stage still ):

I wouldn't even consider downloading an NPC with such stats.
Come on people, where are we all going?
Chloe: 25 DEX. Khadion 20 DEX *and* 20 CHA?
Conan the Barbarian (remember ol' Schwarzy?) had *maybe* a STR of 18 (human limit...). More likely 17.

Again, 20 CHA?
The character should have a permanent "golden aura" or something, all should bow before him, and stare in forgetful amazement at his passage
Above human stats are meant for Avatars of Gods and the like.
Ok, there is magic, but still you take my meaning: we are populating Faerun with monsters of superhuman capabilities, gifted, talented, godly characters at every corner..

I think NPCs don't really need to be always the coolest and strongest in their fields (think about Kelsey).
If you have plot reasons to give an above average stat (or two), I'm sure you could as well do with more realistical stats.

Let me repeat that this is meant to be constructive criticism

[scott3614]

Wellll, I also think that the DEX and CHR are somewhat on the high side, but if you say it'll all be explained, then I'll just wait and see how it looks in the game.

And speaking of waiting, is it ready for release yet?

[scott3614]

How about now?

[SConrad]

Please, take the following as friendly as possible (actually I'm trying to give my opinion and my personal advice being the mod in an early stage still ):

Firstly, I want to state that I take everything as constructive criticism.

I wouldn't even consider downloading an NPC with such stats.
Come on people, where are we all going?
Chloe: 25 DEX. Khadion 20 DEX *and* 20 CHA?
Conan the Barbarian (remember ol' Schwarzy?) had *maybe* a STR of 18 (human limit...). More likely 17.

Yes, my point exactly. People seem to accept Chloe's 25 in dexterity, but not Khadion's 20.

And I won't force anyone to download my mod.

Again, 20 CHA?
The character should have a permanent "golden aura" or something, all should bow before him, and stare in forgetful amazement at his passage   
Above human stats are meant for Avatars of Gods and the like.
Ok, there is magic, but still you take my meaning: we are populating Faerun with monsters of superhuman capabilities, gifted, talented, godly characters at every corner..

Charisma is to be reduced to 18. Based on all of your reactions, I find it the wisest. I admit I probably made that too high, and thank everyone for poiniting that out to me. Due to other NPCs, i won't change the dex, though. (Coran, Viconia, Immy, Renal, etc.).

I think NPCs don't really need to be always the coolest and strongest in their fields (think about Kelsey).
If you have plot reasons to give an above average stat (or two), I'm sure you could as well do with more realistical stats.

No, NPC's don't need to be the best or coolest or strongest. Kelsey is a good example of that. Chloe is an example of the opposite (and I always found the reason for a demigod joining the PC, as well as work as a mercenary for Aran and not to mention having troubles with memphits, very strange).

But remember that BW's NPC's also have abnormal stats (as mentioned before).

But based on my characters background, I'd be extremely surprised if he didn't excel in any area. I want him to excel, since his background suggests that he should have superhuman attributes.

But, as I said; it'll be perfectly explained in the mod.

Let me repeat that this is meant to be constructive criticism

Sure thing. You (hopefully) know my view on it.

[SConrad]

And speaking of waiting, is it ready for release yet?

Not for a while. In time, I will post a progress report here on this forum. There's a lot to be taken care of.

It'll be released asap, I promise. I just don't want to release a "half-made" mod, if you get my point. When I release it, the only thing left to be fixed should be the bugs...

[the bigg]

* bets that T.G.Maestro will add Khadion in no-time to the list of "in need of rebalancing" NPCs, after, of course, Valen, Chloe and (more recently) Tsujatha.*
Seriously, though, to me it isn't such a big problem: a good story will explain everything, I hope. (and super-human stats will help playing )
[spam]Seriously, though, why nobody had told me that "Mazzy the Paladin" is an illegal combo ? I WANT TO BE SPAMMED ASKING TO DELETE THAT MOD! [/spam]

[Andyr]

People seem to accept Chloe's 25 in dexterity

I wouldn't quite say that.

[Kiki]

How about giving him special equipment to raise his DEX +2, so that he doesn't exceed 18? Maybe his scimitar?

[SConrad]

* bets that T.G.Maestro will add Khadion in no-time to the list of "in need of rebalancing" NPCs, after, of course, Valen, Chloe and (more recently) Tsujatha.*

Everybody is entitled to have an opinion. If T.G. wants to rebalance Khadion, he will be most welcome, if he first present the changes he want to make to me.

(and super-human stats will help playing    )

Khadion is a swashbuckler. Shashbucklers are the best fighters of all thief-kits, but still not strong enough to match a real fighter, barbarian, monk or even a paladin or a ranger. His strengh (12 or 14, undecided), won't help Khadion very much in increasing damage. He won't be able to obtain high weapon profs. He won't be able to backstab for more damage.

One of the reasons why I created this mod was because I felt that the game lacks good thieves, which is unfortunate, since you need a thief to complete the game (unless you choose to install the No traps/locked doors-component of Weimers Ease-of-Use). I always had the problem of having weak thiefs, which resulted in either changing Immy to a pure thief or create a multiplayer-NPC. Khadion will fix that problem. He'll probably be the best thief in the game (not counting any other mods), and importantly, he's good-aligned. No other pure thief (counting the mods I know about) is that. But he still won't be as good as a fighter.

When creating the basic idea for Khadion, I concluded that thiefs generally are weak characters. It's probably the weakest class of all (according to me). Khadion won't be able to backstab, since he's a swashbuckler, and he's got a low strengh, compared to a fighter. He won't be able to deal damage like Korgan or Sarevok. But he'll stay alive, due to his dexterity. He'll be a swashbuckler, an acrobatic fighter-type rouge who'll be hard to hit. He won't have the heel of Achilles as all other thieves in the game have: Weak, low HP's, easy to kill for the opponents. You won't need to protect him (as I have been forced to do with other thieves), he can take care of himself. He won't kill as many enemies as your fighters or mages, but he won't make you feel "Oh, dammit, I have this lousy thief which takes one of my 5 precious slots, when I'd rather have <insert another NPC here>, but I can't since I need this worthless thief to finish the game".

I also bet that's why BW have made so many dual- and multiclassed thieves in the game. They also know that you desperatly need a thief, but also concluded that a single-classed thief'll be to weak to be worthwhile. Yoshimo is an exception, but as you might know, if you've played the game (SPOILER ALERT!) he won't be with you very long. He is the best thief (the only single-classed, as well) of the original NPC's, and he's the only one that you can't have all the way. Besides, he is a Bounty Hunter, the lousiest thief-kit. And he's still the best thief in the game, sadly enough. And Jan's the only one able to have the thieves' HLA's. But that'll take awhile, since he's multiclassed. He is also extremely annoying, so I never use him.

So I don't think he'll be overpowered, because of his class. He won't be as good as a fighter as a fighter, no matter how high dexterity he has. But, importantly, he'll feel it worthwhile to have a thief in the party. He won't be the weak link in the party, like previous ones, but an asset.

But, if he turns out to be a better slaughter-machine than Korgan, Minsc or Sarevok, I'll decrease his stats. That, I promise.

Edited by SConrad, 05 July 2004 - 10:39 AM.

[J Beau]

How about a Dex of 18 or 19 and bumping up his speed a point or two. This might distinguish him from the other NPCs and keep the peanut gallery happy also.

[Littiz]

Yes, my point exactly. People seem to accept Chloe's 25 in dexterity, but not Khadion's 20.

I myself gave my cents there as well, I didn't insisted too much since Lucy seemed quite fixed in her idea (but I kept mine, in my turn).
Khadion had two 20s BTW, and the other stats are still pretty high, too...

And I won't force anyone to download my mod.

Of course, but don't misread my post. I wanted to give a quick impression about how one may react from this side, upon seeing those numbers.

Anyway, it's not really a matter of numbers: it's the attitude, as Domi seems to point.
Why try to build always the most "effective" character (be it CHARNAME or an NPC)?
Sure, you will like a powerful and effective NPC.
But if you want to feel about that character, you must grant it weaknesses, limits and "humanity"

Edited by Littiz, 05 July 2004 - 12:44 PM.

[SConrad]

And that exactly what people who talk about balanceobject to - the bestest thief in the game ie better than the player can create for his demi-god thief PC. It is the thing of balance that a thief can disarm a trap but is not a great fighter. When you are trying to make a "perfect" NPC it creates a problem of disbalance.

Firstly, he's not a perfect NPC. He has his flaws, as the PC will find out (such as not being able to keep his temper - low WIS).

Secondly, a PC-thief better than Khadion isn't impossible.

Think about someone saying that Sarevok is a great fighter but needs to be able to remove traps to be useful... and adds 10% per level to detect/remove traps to Sarevok. Is he worst than a thief character with traps? Absolutely! But he just became even more hilareously unbalanced...

I do not quite follow that. Maybe I interpreted it wrong?

Now take Coran. Why did he have DEX 20 (btw it's only one point higher than he is racially allowed) ? Simple enough - he was a low level multiclassed character who was introduced close to the end of the low-level game where it was imperious to keep the characters around for a while to give them surviability. I am not sure if you have noticed, that generally all NPCs you meet in the end of BG1 are weighed with something exceptional. Are you prepared to put your NPC in Suldanessellar and have him on LVL 8?

Well, maybe not. But the fact that he appears in BGII (through mods) suggest that he's overpowered in BGII, if you think Khadion's overpowered.

Khadion had two 20s BTW, and the other stats are still pretty high, too...

Again, his charisma will be lowered.

And which other stats (besides DEX, CHA and INT) do you find high?

Of course, but don't misread my post. I wanted to give a quick impression about how one may react from this side, upon seeing those numbers.

And the reaction is appreciated. Don't think otherwise.

Anyway, it's not really a matter of numbers: it's the attitude, as Domi seems to point.
Why try to build always the most "effective" character (be it CHARNAME or an NPC)?
Sure, you will like a powerful and effective NPC.
But if you want to feel about that character, you must grant it weaknesses, limits and "humanity"

Good argument, no point in denying that. And of course, there will be weaknesses, limits, and most definently humanity. They won't show in the stats, though, except for the low Wisdom.

[KIrving]

He is often found in company of young girls in different taverns all over Athkatla. He is a known heart-breaker, and doesn't care wheather the girl for the evening already has a boyfriend, something that has lead him into trouble several times.

Hmm...does this mean he will be shamelessly coming onto a female PC, even one who is already in a romance with an npc. (Okay this is also my shameless, unsubtle way of asking if he will be romanceable. )

[BobTokyo]

Ie will his WIS disadvantage effect his performance other than forbid him to DC into a Cleric and lead to cute banters?

From my POV, if his WIS disadvantage leads to nothing but cute banters, that's enough. I also like the stealing party money for concubines idea; that would be an interesting counterbalance to Nalia's giving money to beggars.

[SConrad]

I do not quite follow that. Maybe I interpreted it wrong?

To explain disadvantages of you thief you compared him to a fighter, not another thief. The only disadvasntage he has compare to another thief is backstabb - but that is kit limitation, not a custom limitation. I reversed it and compared a fighter to a thief.

Now I understand. You have a point. But as I said before, I consider thieves (all thieves) to be the weakest class' in the game. So if I wanted to compare him to someone, it'll be a fighter, since he's probably better than other existing thieves.

I am curious about the practical ways in which you are going to handle WIS disadvanatage? Will he have an AI that will make him switch to melee and rush into combat once he lost 75% HP? Will he periodically refuse to disarm traps and walk into them instead, saying "Ah, it cannot be that bad"? Will he occasionally steal 1000 gp from the party to give to concubines (at least three times before leaving for spellhold)? Will he break a Wand of Fire causing a fireball centered on him in one of the banters because he wanted to see what's inside? Ie will his WIS disadvantage effect his performance other than forbid him to DC into a Cleric and lead to cute banters?

No, he will not break wands or walk into traps. But let me reverse it, then: The low wisdom attribute is based on his unstability and erratic behaviour. THAT will surely effect him in a negative way.

That's what I meant with low wisdom. He will have weaknessess, be sure of it. It won't show in the stats though, except for the fact that his behaviour is reflected in wisdom. What I want to do is show you that his flaws shows (a little, little bit) in his stats.

From my POV, if his WIS disadvantage leads to nothing but cute banters, that's enough. I also like the stealing party money for concubines idea; that would be an interesting counterbalance to Nalia's giving money to beggars.

Cute banters, sure. That's already taken care of. But, as I said, this is a try to show his weakness (or a small part of it) in the stats.

Stealing money from the party isn't such a bad idea, after all. I first took it as a joke (and I'm sure Domi meant is as a joke, as well), but after some consideration, I conclude that it'd be just a such thing Khadion'd do. So that will probably happen. Didn't see that one coming, did you, Domi?

Hmm...does this mean he will be shamelessly coming onto a female PC, even one who is already in a romance with an npc. (Okay this is also my shamspellholdstudios.netspellholdstudios.neteless, unsubtle way of asking if he will be romanceable.  )

No, he won't be romanceable. His lack of stability and common sense make him a poor romance. He'll probably make a move on a female PC, though. Even if she's got a boyfriend/girlfriend. He'll probably try coming onto other female NPC's, as well. You should see the banters I've written with Jaheira and Viconia.