53 replies to this topic

[JPS]

And one humorous note..
?If your story contains a scene with Jan getting amorous with a turnip, make sure your readers know there?ll be some hortosexual situations in your story.? ? and this.. this is just frightening.  I mean.. ye gods.  If certain people ever see this.. who knows what madness would be unleashed!!  For the love of us all, never say such things again!

For your information: I just wrote about two thirds of a story called "Turnip Love", about love, betrayal and steaming hot vegetable lovin', but in one of my occational attacks of sanity, I decided not to finish it and post it.

Edited by JPS, 29 June 2004 - 02:42 PM.

[Pirengle]

TCPH's "People to Hate" - where can I find a copy? Not that I really need more help with this, but its always fun to have more sources.

That list exists only in print, contains many Hollins-specific references, and if people think what I posted was offensive, boy howdy... But, I'll talk to the author about sharing it.

The Tao teaches that all things are fine till you go against the natural way of things
And talking to the most of the contributers here on fanfic
They feel the forum dynamics here are fine and i personaly see no reason to change them
correct me if im wrong , but so far the only people to voice displesure are you , and moreina. Everyone else seems happy enough and we have a good flow of work here , i personaly enjoy the atmosphere and dont wish it to change

Moreina and I are the only ones talking out loud where people can hear. I've heard from others don't care or don't want to trash their reputations by raising a ruckus. (This whole anonymity thing irks me just as much as the other racket I've been raising.) For what I've read, it's clear to me that some people share my opinions but are just as happy to watch me get in trouble for them. Which is all fine well and good, if you really care about such things as an Internet forum for fan fiction unpublishable anywhere but the Internet. But that's a different cause for a different day. ^_^

except when things have on that occasion ddegenerated to a childish argument
but credit to mg on rescuing that thread without post deletion
personaly i delete my comments pertaining to the event i make no secret that they happend but i also dont want some new memember being scared off by harse feelings and grudges

Yeah, I'm sorry that I started the revolution on Gothic Angel's thread. Maybe when I've lost my bitterness, I'll take another crack at constructive criticism.

[VigaHrolf]

We could get a whole series of Jan and his Lady Turnip stories, tales of passion and betrayal, seduction and culinary arts!  And frankly, I don't think the world is ready for that. 

No, certainly isn't...

Thank you, I will be sure to send you the bill for my counseling to rid myself of the nightmares you just bestowed

Anything I can do for the service. However, please note that all bills will be sent to Central Processing, which is currently located in the Marianas Trench. Once they are processed, then and only then can payment be remitted.

And as of yet, we have not developed a vehicle that can transfer the bill to Central Processing. But I have top men on it.

And JPS...

I'm glad sanity kicked in. I really really am.

VH

[Moreina]

correct me if im wrong , but so far the only people to voice displesure are you , and moreina.

Could this possibly be because others who would voice their displeasure have had their posts deleted, locked or edited? Or maybe they just keep their mouths shut because they know they'll be harassed for expressing their opinions?

I think it is blatently obvious that people are discouraged to give commentary other than 'OMG AWESOMENESS MORE PLZ!!!!1' around here. Reaction to Pirengle's commentary in the past has proven as much. It seems like anything even remotely close to critism is immediatly deemed a 'personal attack' and is edited/deleted. Telling someone that you don't like their character or that they need to work on their grammar is not a personal attack. It's an opinion. And, if expressing an opinion will start a 'flamewar,' maybe we should all just pack up and leave, because if that's the case, just breathing will start a flamewar.

Edited by Moreina, 01 July 2004 - 05:00 PM.

[farsal]

Nobody asked my opinion. But...I am going to give it without solicitation. I think Moreina and Pirengle are disingenuous. I have witnessed both Pirengle and Moreina giving their constructive criticism and I would disagree that they give constructive criticism. I think a person that exemplifies good constructive criticism is Jolyth, or JCompton. He is less tactful but he will, if motivated, give a straightforward critique. Jolyth tells you what she does not like, what she would suggest to correct the flaws, and also gives encouragement. She is straightforward, and helpful. Without being apologetic or saccharin.

I would hardly describe Pirengle's post to Gothic Raven in those terms. Or for that matter her criticism of MG's story "Mind Games."

I have not seen Moreina's criticism of any stories here but I have seen her comments elsewhere, and they are, imo, definite opinions and not constructive. Along the lines of "I don't like, and you should improve, but I have no suggestions, but will reiterate that I don't like."

Again, imo. That said, neither of them should be attacked. I do not know Moreina's experiences, so I will not comment. As to Pirengle's experiences, she should not be harassed for her opinions. Certainly, moderators have a right to their opinions and can respond with the simple, "Sorry, you don't like my story."

Frankly, I thought MG's response was fine. If she was not as gracious as Pirengle would wish...well, too bad.

That said, I will reiterate that I found Pirengle's "Gospel" helpful and quite witty. (In another post.)

As to the moderators apparent censoring of posts, it does exist and at times perhaps a locking is premature but it is their site, and the moderators have the right to lock, if they wish. Moderators, (Sorry moderators.) are not Gods, and there is no reason for them to act in an impeccable manner. I assume they are people, and opinionated as the rest of us.

I have never heard a moderator claim to be perfect. (Although, of course, they are perfect beings.)

Imo, this has been a tempest in a very small teapot.

[VigaHrolf]

Moderators, (Sorry moderators.) are not Gods,

This is actually an untrue statement. Well at least partially untrue. I am, in fact, a god. I am VigaHrolf, God of Paperclips.

(Note: I did not say I was a powerful or important god. Just that I was.)

I have never heard a moderator claim to be perfect. (Although, of course, they are perfect beings.)

This is not entirely true. I am almost perfect. I am only lacking the ability to sleep at work and appear to be productive. Once I acquire this skill, I will, in fact, be perfect.

And for the low low fee of 999 dollars, I will teach anyone else who would be interested in learning this most valuable skill.

Thank you! I'll be here all week! Try the nachos!

VH

[farsal]

[objective - expressing or dealing with facts or conditions as perceived without distortion by personal feelings, prejudices, or interpretations <objective art> <an objective history of the war> <an objective judgment>

subjective - peculiar to a particular individual : PERSONAL <subjective judgments>

I think that a comment can be subjective - and it has a great value to the author that it is indeed subjective, because it shows that a person commenting passed the story through him/herself - and constructive at the same time; it is equally can be objective and constructive. Ie an opinion can constitute a constructive critisism.

I would call my above post subjective, ie, "peculiar" to the individual. That is why I peppered the piece with "imo."

Now can subjective opinion ever be helpful? Sure. Can it be a valid form of criticism? Sure.

However it can also be pointless. I will give an extremely silly example. I once read a non-con, Frodo the sex slave story. It was not badly written, spelling was fine, grammar correct, punctuation was good, etc..

I did not like the story. The only way I would have liked the story was if the author removed all elements of non-consensual sex slavery and perversion from the piece,and re-wrote the story in a way I found appropriate and honored the creator's idea of the character. I could have added that I was shocked to see the character humiliated and abused and subjectively I found the piece offensive.

Had I posted the comments I doubt it would have been very helpful to the author although I did add constructive suggestion on how the story could be made palatable for me. I think the author would have been perplexed on why I made the effort to post a comment.

Do I have a right to give an opinion, subjective, constructive, or other, on a piece published in a public forum? Yes. However, free speech works both ways. I have a right to express an opinion in the manner that I see fit but others have a right in return to express their opinions of my response. Their response may include any response in their power to give from banning, deletion, flaming or simply disagreeing with me.

I will add one other comment, if someone wishes to state an opinion, again, any type of opinion, in a strong and decisive manner they are quite likely to receive a strongly stated response.

[farsal]

Not necessarily, because your comment would have shown your reaction to the piece and the authour could have concluded if s/he had achieved a desired effect or it needs re-working. IE if s/he fully intended to shock audience or s/he actually thought it was a statement against pleasure slavery or s/he just thought it would amuze... etc. I had recieved before very strong comments and in at least one case I withdrew a story after seeing how it frustrated a person.

I agree that action will cause reaction so of course one has to estimate the amount of time and effort s/he is prepared to invest before hand and see how important is it to hold a particular debate

Response to the first paragraph. You are a fairer person than I am. I just thought the writer was perverted.

Response to paragraph two. Could not agree with you more. In the future, I will temper my responses with more care and tact.

[minotaur_in_maze]

Puffkage makes a very good point about the critique. Sometimes an author might add a warning that he does not wish to receive any negative feedback - yes, I've seen this. And yes, those looking for an opportunity to tear another hapless sap to shreds might be annoyed that they are stripped of their opportunity - but a writer's wish has to be respected. If you still want to add something critical that you feel is extremely important - there is always the PM.

Also agreed about the part of the forum dynamics. It has absolutely no relevance to a guide on how to write fanfic, and to me is just another of those little glitches by the esteemed author of this thread that lessens her own credibility and diminishes the impact and worth of the advice.

Keep in mind though the (wonderous ego) value of an even assholeia filled critique: If NOTHING else, it shows that somebody has indeed READ the work in question. Believe me, that little tidbit of information can do wonders in making a writer keep at it.

Oh, my work sucked? Oookay, watch THIS.

Just a thot.

MiM