23 replies to this topic

[BobTokyo]

I've been thinking about this as I work on my own Ritual Magic Mod, and as I look at the mods made by others in the community. The base line of BG Evil (and Evil in D&D) is somewhere between Cartoon Evil and Movie Evil. The Evil of the NPCs is a source of comic relief, while Sarevok, Irenicus and Mel tend towards Cinematic Evil (often well done Cinematic Evil). There are occasional hints of real world Evil (Shar-Teel is a survivor of rape, Aerie and Imoen were tortured, the Iron Throne is using torture and murder to generate profits), but they are still fairly cinematic and kept distant from the player. CHARNAME has very few realistic Evil options to pursue.

So, with a nod to Dorotea who has asked similar questions, would you prefer a mod with a Cartoon approach to Evil ("Tiax rules all!"), a BG standard Cinematic approach to Evil ("I shall drink the blood of the gods and ascend unto the Heavens, and I shall do so in this really nice black coat!"), or a more Realistic approach to Evil, or as realistic as a fantasy world can be (Imoen is already dead; If CHARNAME is re-captured by Irenicus, the game is over).

Edited by BobTokyo, 27 June 2004 - 09:36 AM.

[SConrad]

Real evil. We've had enough of "cartoon-evil" now.

[BobTokyo]

I just want more any kind of evil added to BG2, although preferably real or cinematic, not cartoon.

Does this mean you (or somebody) is working on an evil mod (a la Mod for the Wicked)? Coz if you are I would be happy to help, just can't be arsed undertaking such a big thing alone.

Domi's Midnight Visitor mod is the most interesting almost-real-evil Mod I know of that's in the works right now, and many mods (Return to Windspear, The Dark Elves) in the works have interesting evil paths. I'm working on a three part Ritual Magic mod; the first part is almost done and will be out in the next month or so; it's just an update, expansion and WEIDUization of my Mini-Mods. It will allow you to add Divine magic to any Arcane caster, kitted or not (Cleric-Necromancers, Cleric-Blades, Cleric-Sorcerers, Fighter-Cleric-Mage-Thieves, and so on). Part 2 will add some mini-quests, items, non-joinable NPCs, etc. That may be out before November, depending on my job situation. Part 3 will include some new evil options and changes to the plot, but I can make no guarantees as to when I'll have it done.

[Deathsangel]

I just want more any kind of evil added to BG2, although preferably real or cinematic, not cartoon.

Does this mean you (or somebody) is working on an evil mod (a la Mod for the Wicked)?  Coz if you are I would be happy to help, just can't be arsed undertaking such a big thing alone. 

Domi's Midnight Visitor mod is the most interesting almost-real-evil Mod I know of that's in the works right now, and many mods (Return to Windspear, The Dark Elves) in the works have interesting evil paths. I'm working on a three part Ritual Magic mod; the first part is almost done and will be out in the next month or so; it's just an update, expansion and WEIDUization of my Mini-Mods. It will allow you to add Divine magic to any Arcane caster, kitted or not (Cleric-Necromancers, Cleric-Blades, Cleric-Sorcerers, Fighter-Cleric-Mage-Thieves, and so on). Part 2 will add some mini-quests, items, non-joinable NPCs, etc. That may be out before November, depending on my job situation. Part 3 will include some new evil options and changes to the plot, but I can make no guarantees as to when I'll have it done.

*Self-promotion*
May I also refer to my mod in the making Darkness in Light. It should have a bit of all these evils in it.

Edited by Deathsangel, 28 June 2004 - 03:49 AM.

[Sovran]

Here's a dilemma: cinematic evil can be attractive. I agree with BobTokyo that in BG, there are examples of cinematic evil that works; and it works in a way it couldn't work in a non-fantasy setting, I believe. Accepting that this kind of evil can exist is a part of the standard suspension of disbelief that some brands of fantasy require, I think, as much as accepting the existence of a land such as Faerun.

So, no need for a backstory or a motive, thunder effects will always send chills down everyone's spine and those black coats are really nice. What a relief. Looks good, too. Then why did I vote for Realistic? I suppose I like my fantasy evil a little too close for comfort. :/ Every now and then, at least; and every now and then, I like shrugging into my comfy black leather and turning up the thunder volume. >:)

[fallen_demon]

I'd like realistic backstory and motives, but climatic cimenatic-style sceenes pre-final battle.

What should i vote for?

[Rastor]

Here's a dilemma: cinematic evil can be attractive. I agree with BobTokyo that in BG, there are examples of cinematic evil that works; and it works in a way it couldn't work in a non-fantasy setting, I believe. Accepting that this kind of evil can exist is a part of the standard suspension of disbelief that some brands of fantasy require, I think, as much as accepting the existence of a land such as Faerun.

So, no need for a backstory or a motive, thunder effects will always send chills down everyone's spine and those black coats are really nice. What a relief. Looks good, too. Then why did I vote for Realistic? I suppose I like my fantasy evil a little too close for comfort. :/ Every now and then, at least; and every now and then, I like shrugging into my comfy black leather and turning up the thunder volume. >

Hehe, that's coming from someone who is currently working on her own evil mod: http://www.rpgdungeon.net/sarevok.html

I don't know if I like the real evil stuff. It can be okay in small doses, but I don't really want a mod dealing with rape, torture, and the like. Games are supposed to be fun, and we have enough of that stuff in the real world. The majority of the things discussed in the "Mod for the Wicked" thread would be all right, however.

[Keltosh]

Well, for me real evil SHOULD be the one (hell, when i DM a pnp game, which is OFTEN, i always have real evil ) .. but... there are some considerations

First, real evil requires a LOT of explanations. It is certainly nice to know the whys and hows of an evil character, BUT if you do not know them WELL (which means lots of dialogues and explanations and maybe hints of the Evil Character's motivations => a lot of modding and game time) .. then there's the risk of having players who do NOT understand what is happening.
And at that point, the acts of the Evil Character seem just random acts of destruction & madness.

Second, real evil does not become EPIC unless it is VERY WELL done, while cinematic evil is almost always grand-looking. And at certain point of the game you need the feeling of an epic struggle, and it is certainly more difficult to transimit that feeling with real evil.

So, all things considered, i think real evil should ONLY be used if you're confident in your ability to write a story that will become epic anyway, and if you're ready for the extra pain and contents required

[Fenris]

I voted for real Evil, simply because there isn't much of this in modern Games. Most Movies and Games are Cinematic Evil and (for D&D) the Hasbro/WotC-Censors will ensure that only Cartoon-Evil will be published.

[Gabrielle]

Evil is as evil does. Real evil. Why not have a villian who kills all that they think is inferior to them/race/religion/whatever. Or perhaps a villian who is sick like that child killer dwarf (forgot his name) or the skin dancer. Bring some reality into the game world to make it more "realistic".

[BobTokyo]

Skin Dancer and Neb feel a bit cinematic to me... The way I imagine real evil is more casual... rape a girl in passing, castrate a young boy to sell him into slavery for more money, kill someone out of boredom, torture villagers to find out where the lord's gold is...

Kill the heroes rather than telling them your plans and then dropping them into an easily escapable death trap, murder the hostage, organise a series of brutal ethnic cleansings for political gain, blow up shops and buildings killing dozens / hundreds / thousands to terrify a populace . . .

At their best BG1 & 2 do hint at real evil, all of it off screen, and I've been thinking about making CHARNAME encounter and/or deal with some of the consequences of that.

[Gabrielle]

Skin Dancer and Neb feel a bit cinematic to me... The way I imagine real evil is more casual... rape a girl in passing, castrate a young boy to sell him into slavery for more money, kill someone out of boredom, torture villagers to find out where the lord's gold is...

Jeffry Dahlmer and Ed Gein come to mind for young kid killing cannibals.

[BobTokyo]

Skin Dancer and Neb feel a bit cinematic to me... The way I imagine real evil is more casual... rape a girl in passing, castrate a young boy to sell him into slavery for more money, kill someone out of boredom, torture villagers to find out where the lord's gold is...

Jeffry Dahlmer and Ed Gein come to mind for young kid killing cannibals.

Ted Bundy the birthday clown, active in the community, selling his paintings . . .

Real life produces some profound evil.