44 replies to this topic

[T.G.Maestro]

Really. While many parts of PS:T are superb, the battles (and especially the magical battles) are overly below the acceptable line. Of course thi can be related to my BG2 (modding) experiences, but I found the encounters in PS:T sometimes boring (and always very easy). Really, the fact that one can beat TTO with a far from perfect fighter TNO (at 13th level) by simply whacking it to death, and using 3-4 Heart/Blood Charms speaks for itself. And we haven't even toyed with the possibility of resurrcting any of the dead party members... ...
But I can give another example. PS:T has numerous demon/devil encounters in the later parts. Really, it pains me to see that a Cornougon (a GREATER Baatezu) simply attacks the party in melee and lets himself cut into pieces for 10000 XP. Where are its spell-like abilities? Where are its gating abilities? The bleeding wounds from its claw attacks? And the case is even worse with the Glabrezus.
Or lt me take a look at the battle with Ignus. This battle holds GREAT potentials in it, it could have been a very entertaining dual between the master and the "supplicant". At least his arrival video was astounding. Come on, he simply floats in one spot as if he had roots, and lets the player smash him to pulp. He could be way more mobile, flying over to different spots of the room and do so FAST, as if running. But again, the same goes for TTO or Trias - all they can do is stand/float helplessly and keep using a few mid-level spells...

I think among the nice features of PS:T, this is the games most disappointing side.

[Echon]

While I agree that a lot of your complaints are valid, I do not actually remember being bothered by any of it. I do not think I was that concerned with combat when playing Torment.

-Echon

[T.G.Maestro]

Hmm. And you never felt that the "greater" foes in the game should be somewhat... more difficult?
I always expect the "finals" to be very exhausting and difficult to beat. This made me stare in front of me and feeling quite empty the first time I killed TTO that easily (described above).

[BobTokyo]

Torment is almost entirely a storytelling game, not a tactical combat game. Tougher comments are fine if you want to mod them in, but combat was never the point in Torment.

If you want tactical combat with some story to string it together, play IWD2.

[T.G.Maestro]

If you want tactical combat with some story to string it together, play IWD2.

What? IWD2? You are joking I guess. IWD 1/2 are better called hack&slash than tactical. Mage battles suck there too.
I consider ToB and parts of SoA the most tactical RPGs.

[BobTokyo]

If you want tactical combat with some story to string it together, play IWD2.

What? IWD2? You are joking I guess. IWD 1/2 are better called hack&slash than tactical. Mage battles suck there too.
I consider ToB and parts of SoA the most tactical RPGs.

Actually the most tactical RPG I've played recently was TOEE. Much else in the game sucked, but the tactical combat was there.

[T.G.Maestro]

Actually the most tactical RPG I've played recently was TOEE. Much else in the game sucked, but the tactical combat was there

I' doubt it on a point. Again, take Zuggtmoy for example at the end of the game. Her highest level spell-like abiliy is Dispel Magic??!
Aside from that, this Greater Demoness had nothing of her true powers.

But ToEE IS tactical, I admit it. At least the battles (but the mage vs. mage battles are very poor there as well).

[BobTokyo]

take Zuggtmoy for example at the end of the game. Her highest level spell-like abiliy is Dispel Magic??!  
Aside from that, this Greater Demoness had nothing of her true powers.

Your characters topped out at 10th level. Did you want her throwing around time stops and meteor swarms?

I'll conceed that the final battle was not much of a challenge, nor was much of the lower temple if you don't count bugs, but getting there was good tactical fun.

the mage vs. mage battles are very poor there as well

This is one area I thought SOA did very well.

[T.G.Maestro]

Did you want her throwing around time stops and meteor swarms?

Hmm, something like that . Frankly, nothing THAT powerful, but a few more spells/spell-like abilities would have been nice. But hey, she was defeated by ONE well-placed blow by that hero in the opening cinematics anyway...

Adding an additional element to the heavy offtopic (sorry guys!), how did you defeat the Balor in ToEE???

[raptor]

:PsT:
both and, some fights where easy and some dont. considering i have played mage pretty much every time. Fighter is a *tad* superior to the two other alternatives.

:ToEE:
Dwarf Paladin4/fighter6 (immune to fear paladin) and that bastard sword that never misses. the rest of teh team merelly ran back and forth and hacked imps, distrating the balor. they couldnt really do any real dmg, exept ocational soundburst (only dmg type it have no immunity or resistances) or an occational cone of cold, did some chip dmg on him.

really that balor ha most the abilities as it should have, but set to CR 9. rather anoying. if you kill it, its listed as CR 9, you gain XP as for a CR9 monster. that was rippoff.... however one of the other demons had a "typo/bug" that made it CR19, wich gave you alot of XP.


:BG2 mage vs mage:
uhm aside from that, the only real "mage vs mage" thingy i have found in BG2 was actually the varied spells. eventually figured that with my level 16 abjurer, i did not have a single offencive spell memorised was a different feeling. what you refer to as "dueling mage vs mage" is technically that you have more spells than: magic missle, melfs acid arow, mirror image, fireball, stoneskin, cloudkill.

Personally i think IWD1 was the most tactical one, wizardvice. But i probablly just have some bad experiences from BG2 in that regard (some nasty bugs)

Edited by raptor, 22 June 2004 - 10:43 AM.

[BobTokyo]

But hey, she was defeated by ONE well-placed blow by that hero in the opening cinematics anyway...

Exactly.

Adding an additional element to the heavy offtopic (sorry guys!), how did you defeat the Balor in ToEE???

My no-reloads all wizard party used clairvoyance, Ice Storms and magic missiles to kill him from the other side of the map; unlimited scrolls = unlimited spells for all.

(That party finished the entire game without a single character death or death-induced reload)

That felt too deeply cheesy even for one of my hardcore parties, so the next time through my mixed magic party conjured up a small army of buffed fire elementals and fed them to him while sniping from behind the lines. Much more fun.

One of my mod projects when I have the time will be to port that XP Points for scrolls thing over to BG2.

Edited by BobTokyo, 22 June 2004 - 12:32 PM.

[The Amazing Maurice]

While I agree that, yes the combat is rather poor, I don't belive that is what Torment is about - as such it isn't important to the game.

You only have to fight three or four times out of the whole game.

Hell, you don't even have to fight the final battle (physically at least).

While this will bother some people it didn't me - As I've said Torment is an acquired taste.

[Xander77]

Meh... you have to notice that TNO doesn't have many combat options either - stab-run-hide-stab as thief, hack it out as fighter or bomb it out as mage.

But honestly, I really wish TTO was as big as his words:

I can unmake the plains. I can unmake YOU.

[BobTokyo]

One of my mod projects when I have the time will be to port that XP Points for scrolls thing over to BG2.

Going OT for a second - I think you actually GOT XP for scribing scrolls successfully in 2nd Ed, not lost it.

Different issue. In 3.5, and in TOEE, a wizard can spend XP to create as many scrolls as he likes. It makes low level Wizards much more viable characters, in exchange for slowing their advancement if they go overboard and scribe excessively. It doesn't boost the raw power of high level Wizards that much as they already have plenty of spell slots, but it makes them far more flexible as they can now always carry scrolls of rarely used spells for those occasions when they might be needed. It also closes most of the power gap between Wizards and Sorcerers.

[Platter]

Actually, there are only three unavoidable fights in Planescape: Torment,
Ravel, Trias, and either Ignus or Vhailor.

You have to kill the Zombie in the Mortuary to get the key.

(Shades of evil, good and neutrality?  )

In Deionarra's prophecy Good is Trias, Neutrality is Ravel and Evil is Fhjull.

[T.G.Maestro]

In Deionarra's prophecy Good is Trias, Neutrality is Ravel and Evil is Fhjull

Hmm, isn't that:

Evil: Ravel (she is really far from neutral)
Good: Trias
Neutral: TTO (it has neither alignment, nor personality)
?

[Platter]

Nope!

...

Well... cya.

Edited by Platter, 23 June 2004 - 09:14 AM.

[The Amazing Maurice]

^



Avellone has said that the three that Platter quoted are the ones.