27 replies to this topic

[Xaositect_Crayon]

I was reading what little they had on their and for some reason Darkwood got all the factols mazed because he was stupid enough to start a faction war?

The only one left is Rhys.... is there a more indepth history of sigil during that time... I meen really... that (as Stan from southpark would say) is pretty ****ed (dont know if I can say the f word here) up right here.

btw is that site official?

Edited by Xaositect_Crayon, 17 June 2004 - 11:34 AM.

[JPS]

I'm not completely sure, but I think that the Faction War was introduced in one of the official books, probably just before the Planescape product line got closed down. The planewalker.com people are, as far as I know, just following the official line.

The site itself is "the official fansite", which means that they have permission to do what they're doing and they're probably linked to from WotC's site. I don't think that gives their material the same status as an actual published product, if you care about that kind of thing.

[Xaositect_Crayon]

hmmm I see... so I guess it's the closest thing to cannon you can get

it seems noone knew what happened to the old factols... they "assume" they were mazed... and the chaos of the faction war was pretty screwed up.

I actually am beginning to think that the lady forseen this and mazed them all for their own safety

[Wiskas]

All those mazed ones aren't dead. I think somewhere it's written that it's possible to get out of the Maze and in case of such powerful beings as factols at least one of them could get out.

And Mercykillers factol was sold to fiends so she could be alive.

It's wriiten in faction war that Lady mazed them because the began to really annoy her. Even being in the middle of Bloodwar battlefield is better than Maze.

[NiGHTMARE]

Don't forget that most of the factions have/had members outside of Sigil. In fact, IIRC a couple of them even had their headquarters in other planes.

Edited by NiGHTMARE, 31 December 2004 - 12:41 PM.

[alustriel]

I was reading what little they had on their and for some reason Darkwood got all the factols mazed because he was stupid enough to start a faction war?

The only one left is Rhys....  is there a more indepth history of sigil during that time... I meen really... that (as Stan from southpark would say) is pretty ****ed (dont know if I can say the f word here) up right here.

btw is that site official?

The canon 2e info was a Adventure/Accessory manual called Faction War, which I own. Written by Monte Cook and published in 1998, its very much a part of the official timeline. It's the downfall of the factions as Sigil knows them and the beginning of an age where the factions have been splintered and driven out of the Cage, or into hiding by the Lady. I'm going to update this one to 3e in increments and turn this into a campaign soon.

And yes, Planewalkers is officially recognized by WotC and they have a link to the Planewalker site as the Official place for information on Planespace. They have full permission to take 2e PS and update it to 3e for player use. Thank Gods.

Don't forget that most of the factions have/had members outside of Sigil.  In fact, IIRC a couple of them even had their headquarters in other planes.

Most, if not all, of the factions were headquartered outside of Sigil. Harmonium - Arcadia, Sensates - Arborea, Xaositects - Limbo, Guvners - Mechanus, Mercykillers - Acheron, etc... IIRC

[Stone Wolf]

Ah, one of my least favorite books. Here's one little...error, that made it into the book. Darkwood, a CG ranger/priest, sold the woman that loved him into slavery with the fiends. Somehow he still kept all his class abilities.

[Archmage Silver]

Perhaps it was considered 'good' being the less dangerous one of the two options.

[alustriel]

Ah, one of my least favorite books.  Here's one little...error, that made it into the book.  Darkwood, a CG ranger/priest, sold the woman that loved him into slavery with the fiends.  Somehow he still kept all his class abilities. 

Agreed! He should have fallen immediately and lost all abilities. I'm not sure I agree with Darkwood being a ranger anyway. In Sigil. The nature classes are the least compatible with Sigil to start with. Tsk.

[Archmage Silver]

Yes, I don't think that Sigil is a place where you can meet a ranger or a druid wandering the streets.

[Wiskas]

Why not?

"Save the cranium rats!!"
"Our intelligent friends!!"
"Society of razorwine friends."

[alustriel]

Why not?

"Save the cranium rats!!"
"Our intelligent friends!!"
"Society of razorwine friends."

*spits drink on keyboard* LOL!

[Stone Wolf]

He's actually a Prime, so being a ranger makes some sense. He also dualed into a cleric, so maybe he realized that his Ranger abilities weren't all that relevant anymore.

[alustriel]

Ah, but part of the problem with that lies in that in order to maintain good standing as a servant of nature, you have to... serve nature. That's part and parcel of being a druid or ranger. There's not nature to speak of in Sigil, and his actions as a factol are hardly wholesome and very ranger-y. He walks a very thin line between even deserving that CG and falling with his plotting and scheming to overthrow the Lady of Pain and become the ruler of Sigil. I'm thinking that he'd fall as a ranger from lack of service at some point and just be a cleric from then on out.

Edited by alustriel, 01 January 2005 - 12:51 AM.

[Stone Wolf]

Except that he'd lose access to his cleric spells during the faction war, so he'd just be a fighter.

[Wiskas]

I doubt that anyone with good alignment will sell even his worst enemy to fiends. He would rather kill him.

[oralpain]

There are plenty of planar rangers and druids. Even though it would be very rare for one to be a native (or at least to have learned his/her ranger/druid abilities) in sigil, some being in sigil on occasion is not really abnormal.

Rangers are not "servants" of nature, they are fighters with extensive wilderness trianing/experience (and quite possibly a natural gift for such things) who may or may not serve a power related to nature. Druids and rangers are totaly different things.

Rowan Darkwood "breaks" alot of rules. Rules are only guidelines and almost always have exceptions. While there is not enough specifics to decide if Darkwood would fit the chaotic good alignment or not there are several other areas where he is obviously against what is normaly obtainable with a "strict" interpretation of the rules.

Priests of Heimdall must be of lawful alignment. Rowan Darkwood is not. Howeve,r he may have assited Hiemdall in such a way so he would continue to recieve his priestly abilities.

Darkwood has done things that would normally cause loss of his ranger status. He still has all ranger abilities except perhaps spells (he is a 19th level ranger, but his offical 2E stats do not list any spells that are not part of his priest class).

I doubt that anyone with good alignment will sell even his worst enemy to fiends. He would rather kill him.

Chaotic Good is a highly versatile alignment. There are many examples of CG people/creatures doing horrible things to their enemies without violating their alignment. There also may have been extenuating circumstances.

Edited by oralpain, 01 January 2005 - 07:49 AM.

[alustriel]

Rangers are not "servants" of nature, they are fighters with extensive wilderness trianing/experience (and quite possibly a natural gift for such things) who may or may not serve a power related to nature. Druids and rangers are totaly different things.

Au contraire, but they are servants of nature at least in the Realms. True rangers of Mielikki have very specific duties they must perform in her service in order to continue to receive her blessings, as do even Her clerics. (As in many things, Drizzt is the exception to the rule. ) This might not hold true for ALL nature gods, but it does for her. Mielikki is the patron of rangers in Faerun afterall. And Forgotten Realms 3e does require that all divine classes choose a patron that provides their spells. Heimdall is obviously not a Realms god, and Planescape uses a differing ruleset about divine casting than the Realms, not requiring a specific godly affiliation, rather you can draw on the mysterious 'powers' instead of a god.

(I'm constantly in Realms mindset because that's the setting I play the most. )

Rowan Darkwood "breaks" alot of rules. Rules are only guidelines and almost always have exceptions. While there is not enough specifics to decide if Darkwood would fit the chaotic good alignment or not there are several other areas where he is obviously against what is normaly obtainable with a "strict" interpretation of the rules.

Priests of Heimdall must be of lawful alignment. Rowan Darkwood is not. Howeve,r he may have assited Hiemdall in such a way so he would continue to recieve his priestly abilities.

Darkwood has done things that would normally cause loss of his ranger status. He still has all ranger abilities except perhaps spells (he is a 19th level ranger, but his offical 2E stats do not list any spells that are not part of his priest class).

I doubt that anyone with good alignment will sell even his worst enemy to fiends. He would rather kill him.

Chaotic Good is a highly versatile alignment. There are many examples of CG people/creatures doing horrible things to their enemies without violating their alignment. There also may have been extenuating circumstances.

Meh... NPC's always break some rules, which is annoying when you start to use them as examples of things. There's always some character you can toss out to refute whatever argument there is in place. Elminster is a good one, as is Drizzt. Each one has some contradictions to the rules, but as NPC's, that's fine. It's PC's that should stick as closely to the rules as possible for game balance.

I'm a huge fan of game balance, and in 3e, balance is critical because encounters are balanced against a certain level of power set up by the core rules. Once you start tipping those rules in the player's favor, the DM's gotta work harder to challenge the chars consistently which ain't always easy. I don't give out exceptions easily anymore because I found players taking advantage of loopholes to make very powerful characters. Players are smart critters.

Anyway, I disagree utterly with Darkwood's alignment period. CG doesn't give license to do some of the stuff he did, just like CN isn't a free pass to do evil when you feel like it and not change to an evil alignment. When your goal is to overthrow the current ruler and become the sole ruler (dictator) of a city by any underhanded means possible (which he did), your reasoning should be for the greater good. His reasoning is a selfish want to be the ruler of Sigil and eventually become a God or other power, I believe. That goes a bit beyond CG.

[oralpain]

Trying to take over the cage for the "greater good" would not necissarily be any more good than wanting it for personall gain. It "might" be more lawful/orderly, but it would not be any more right or good, at least in AD&D terms. Most lawful evil beings are after their there version of the "greater good".

Selling someone into slavery is not necissarily more evil than killing them. It could reasonably be argued that it is more "good". Atleast if they are alive they have a chance, however small.

No one fits their alignment perfectly, except superfical and unbeliveable characters. Alignment is just the closest value that fits the tabulated sum of a persons' overall actions and values.

I my games NPCs and PCs play by the same rules. There is nothing a PC could concivably do that would be totaly impossible for an NPC and vice versa. It's self balancing. I don't run or play overpowered games for the most part. Anything is possible, but everything significant must be earned. Balance simply for the sake of balance is pointless, in my opinion.

Hiemdall is a sworn enemy of Loki. Loki often uses giants in his schemes. Rowan Darkwood's species enemy is giant. Darkwood could have defeated, or foiled the plans of some powerful giant in service to Loki, earning Hemidall's gratitude. It is not inconcevable that Heimdall could have granted Darkwood priestly powers, without all of the typical ethos restrictions, as a reward, or as the agreed payment for his services. Powers/Dieties/Gods are certianly powerfull enough to allow their power to be used by any damn person they choose.

I would not bar a PC from reciving a similar boon in a similar situation, just becasue the rules, wich are specifically stated as guidlines, say this is not typical. They would still have to learn to use the powers granted to them, (ie gaining levels) and if they did something to anger the source of their powers, or violate the agreement in wich they gained the powers, then the powers could be removed.

As for the ranger abilities, I personally see no reason to remove them from someone for failing to follow it's guidliness, as virtually all of the abilities are mundane (a paladin's abilities on the other hand are nearly all granted by a god and would lose every single one upon failling). I would certainly remove any priest spells and possibly reduce the other abilities of a fallen ranger, but would not remove them. I see no balance problem with this as the character is simply a fighter who needs more experience to rise in level, has a better chance of hiding/moving with stealth, and who cannot specialize or gain mastery in any wepaons. This is effectivly what Darkwood is. He would be MORE powerful as a fighter.

Planescape is not significantly diferent form most other setting in the way powers/gods work. Indeed, it's all a part of the multiverse. In away every setting (at least every offical one) is part of the planescape setting. Rowan Darkwood himself was a great hero in a rather obscure area of the realms. He participated in the Bloodstone wars and helped save the area (and possibly the world) from the Witch-king Zhengyi and the Tannar'ri Lord/God Orcus.

Priest of nonspecific higher powers are rare pritty much everywhere and are not barred from the realms (though they would probably not be natives). The standard cleric (as per the 2E players handbook) is stated as possibly serving simply "good" or "evil", not necissarily a specific god.

I used 2E references as the vast majority of offical information on Planescape and Rowan Darkwood are in 2E sources. If there are specific considreations of 3/3.5E then they might override a few things. If you are using this in a 3E game that is.

[NiGHTMARE]

Regarding the "Sigil isn't a suitable place for druids" comment:

As far as we know, the plane on which Sigil exist (the Outlands) is a naturally occurring place. In fact, a couple of nature deities reside there, such as Obad-Hai. It was not artificially created, so there's no reason why a druid couldn't have a connection to the place.

Druids are connected to the natural forces of their native world/plane (though if they move to another world/plane, they may establish a connection to their new location after several years of meditation), which are obviously vastly different depending on where you go.

Of course, a druid who were native to the Gray Waste would probably have somewhat different ideas on how to go about serving nature than than a druid who who originated from Arborea. I'd love to se a "Druids of the Planes" article somewhere, sometime...

Edited by NiGHTMARE, 01 January 2005 - 04:02 PM.