146 replies to this topic

[Stone Wolf]

Other than the invisibility thing, that sounds about right.

[the bigg]

The biggest problem with Tactics' Pit Fiends is that, when under PFE10'R, they won't attack you and remain 100% invisible; then, you cast True Sight to make them visible, and voila, they become invisible again. You need to send summoned scouts ahead, wait offscreen for them to be Stunned and killed, then kill the damned thing before he becomes invisible again.
Then, his lethally poisoned attack doesn't use "kill" opcode, but instead inflicts 999 poison damage. Meaning that, unless you are a cavalier / monk or have remembered to pick up the periapt, one hit is one reload (they kill beyond resurrection). If it were a "kill" opcode, you cold simply cast Death Ward. This has the side effect of blocking your early way to Mazzy & Imoen (there are Liches there if you use Ishan's improved spawns).
Finally, Weimer's way to summon stuff on part of Mages & Liches (instead of casting the spell, they create the .cre) means that you can't sleep them off.

[T.G.Maestro]

Yes, just as Bigg said, there are numerous problems with the weimeric implementation of these fiends. We'll try to get them to their true pnp levels WITHOUT introducing further cheesy methods.

[T.G.Maestro]

The pit fiends had a poison attack?

Yes, even in pnp. Unmodded BG2 Pit Fiends don't have it, just as all the other demons/devils lack most of their special powers.

[Stone Wolf]

I really don't understand why they stripped fiends of all of their abilities and then jacked up their xp. To whoever decided that:

[T.G.Maestro]

They did this while trying to balance them in BG2. What I cannot understand, is the following: why adding incredibly powerful demons/devils to a game where the playing characters cannot face them with success? There are scores of other useable (and most interesting) creatures - even weaker fiends. They could have always add Nipperabbos, Abishais instead of the most powerful Balors (they are also stripped of their powers), Glabrezus, Cornougons and Pit Fiends. Or at least not unitl late SoA or ToB.

[Stone Wolf]

Meanwhile they throw in a couple demi-liches and don't include any of their vulnerabilities! Hell, first time I fought that damn thing I had a Pally with a holy sword and Minsc with a vorpal weapon. It should have been easy! Nope. I even tried going ethereal and casting PWK, but that didn't work either.

[T.G.Maestro]

Meanwhile they throw in a couple demi-liches and don't include any of their vulnerabilities!

Note that many of their special and spell-like powers were dropped as well!

[Stone Wolf]

They did miss out on the Death Ray effect and the curse, but the spells make up for those losses. I mean, a demi-lich doesn't even cast normal spells! Since they only have 50 hps, a Paladin with Carsomyr and Minsc with a vorpal sword should have chopped right through it (doing full damage). The PWK cast by an astral or ethereal mage should just kill it instantly.

Heh, battles with demiliches tend to be short. You either kill it quickly or it kills you.

[T.G.Maestro]

How about these:

Fear Aura (Su): Demiliches are shrouded in a dreadful aura of death and evil. Creatures of less than 5 HD in a 60-foot radius that look at the demilich must succeed at a Will save (DC 19) or be affected as though by fear as cast by a 21st-level caster. The DC is Charisma-based.

Paralyzing Touch (Su): Any living creature a demilich touches must succeed at a Fortitude save (DC 36) or be permanently paralyzed. Remove paralysis or any spell that can remove a curse can free the victim. The effect cannot be dispelled. Anyone paralyzed by a demilich seems dead, though a successful Spot check (DC 20) or Heal check (DC 15) reveals that the victim is still alive.

Spells: The demilich can cast any spells it could cast as a lich. This sample demilich was a 21st-level wizard (spells per day: 4/12/8/7/7/7/7/6/6/6/3). The last three spell slots are 10th-level slots and available for 0-9th level metamagic spells.

Spell-Like Abilities: At will-alter self, astral projection, create greater undead, create undead, death knell, enervation, greater dispel magic, harm (usually used to heal itself ), summon monster I-IX, telekinesis, weird; 2/day-greater planar ally. Demiliches use these abilities as casters of a level equal to their spellcaster level, but the save DCs are all 36. The DC is Charisma-based.

Since they only have 50 hps, a Paladin with Carsomyr and Minsc with a vorpal sword should have chopped right through it (doing full damage).

Why? Is it something in 2ndE?

The PWK cast by an astral or ethereal mage should just kill it instantly.

Again, how? Aren't they COMPLETELY immune to Death and Deth effects..?

[Stone Wolf]

Sorry, you're talking about 3E, while BG2 is 2E. In 2E:

1) They have none of the abilities you listed.

2) They take full damage from some physical attacks (+5 or vorpal weapons, or +4 or hold when attacked by a Paladin). Otherwise they take 1 point of damage from +4 weapons and maces of disruption.

3) They're immune to all magic except PWK by an astral or ethereal mage, Dispel Evil (1D4+4 damage),Shatter (3D6 damage), and Holy Word (5D6 damage). Oh, and a forget spell makes them sink back down and ignore people unless they're attacked again.

[T.G.Maestro]

oh, and one more thing for Demi-Liches:

Phylactery Transference (Su): Headbands, belts, rings, cloaks, and other wearable items kept in close association with the demilich?s phylactery transfer all their benefits to the demilich no matter how far apart the demilich and the phylactery are located. The standard limits on types of items utilized simultaneously still apply.

But hey, lets keep this discussion about Fiends, right?

[Stone Wolf]

Oh, I think demi-liches are only worth 10k xp in PnP, instead of the 50k in BG2.

[T.G.Maestro]

Oh, I think demi-liches are only worth 10k xp in PnP, instead of the 50k in BG2

True. Either the XP should be lowered to 10.000, or their abilities restored.

[Stone Wolf]

Well, if you're going to convert it to 3E, then the xp makes a little more sense. I'd just ask that you not call changin something to a later version "restored"--I've been playing too long to like hearing people talk about 3E like it's the way things have always been.

[T.G.Maestro]

Again, good thoughts Wolf.

Still, I'd warn you on the fact that it would be another false statement to call BG2 true 2ndE... truth to be told, it is a strange hybrid of 2nd and 3rdE.
Thats the logic I follow.

[Stone Wolf]

It's fundamentally 2E. There may by little touches of 3E, but the rules are straight 2E.

[Nerik]

It's fundamentally 2E. There may by little touches of 3E, but the rules are straight 2E.

There is also a bit of 1st ed. in - namely the familiars - IIRC you couldn't get a pseudo dragon, imp, or quasit using the 2nd. edition find familiar spell, and 2nd. ed. familiars didn't add HPs to their mage either.

Oh, and I vote for 2nd. ed. demi-liches (preferably with All their second ed. abilities.

OTOH, now I come to think of it, IIRC, there is a precident for Forgotten Realms demi-lichs casting spells in sourcebooks dating back to 1st. ed.

Charles

[T.G.Maestro]

And now, lets continue the discussion about Fiends...