247 replies to this topic

[Feanor]

I'm not sure if this has be covered before, but has there been any consideration of giving the dragons an attack that does crushing damage? you know.... when they fly up high and decide to just drop their dead weight on you.

It would be easier to give them an additional 1D6 crushing damage to their attacks, but TG already kicked that suggestion. Thought I wonder if he shouldn't, because some creatures (golems, for instance, are immune to slashing damage) ?

You can't summon a Clay Golem, so this isn't really a problem. OK, a conjurer can summon a Magic Golem, but Crushing damage won't help anyway... and the only time I summoned one he lasted zero time zero against Imp Bodhi. For some reason, she was getting through his PFMW (while, with much relief, she is helpless against mine)

Not so fast, Bigg : you forgot there is a shapechange spell which allows the wizard to turn into an iron golem. This has a slashing resistance (though I can't remember exactly how much... )

Edited by Feanor, 31 August 2004 - 04:06 AM.

[hlidskialf]

You can't summon a Clay Golem, so this isn't really a problem.

You are forgetting about a certain manual that Cespanar likes to work his recipies on here. (Just pointing it out to be a shit. )

[Feanor]

You can't summon a Clay Golem, so this isn't really a problem.

You are forgetting about a certain manual that Cespanar likes to work his recipies on here. (Just pointing it out to be a shit. )

Hlid, I want to hug you for that !

[the bigg]

Ack. But then, you can use the sewers cloack and turn in a rat for 90% slashing, piercing, thrown and blunt resistance. In this case, you may want to add some damage of the appropriate kind (EG fire for red)...
Well, these are good points, but our script will ignore summons (except for Planetars, Gr. Elementals and the such). About the slashing resistance, I'll add a cheap CheckStatLT to prevent wacking somebody with 100% resistance (Hardiness + Wish Hardiness + Armor of Faith = 100%, and there are other ways to achieve this as well)

Edited by the bigg, 01 September 2004 - 12:31 AM.

[Feanor]

Well, these are good points, but our script will ignore summons (except for Planetars, Gr. Elementals and the such).

OK, Bigg, but, now, just a curiousity : what scripts have to do with that (the additional crushing damage) ???

[hlidskialf]

It's how a creature chooses what attack method (damage type, spells, innates, etc...) to use. Without a script all the baddies just stand there... :help:

[Feanor]

No, no, no, Hlid, you did not understand my point. I know the scripts decide which spells and abilities a creature will use. But, if we add to an item which a creature uses (in our case, the dragon's claw) an additional damage (just like Angurvadal does 1D4 additional fire damage, to be more clear), that should not be related with scripts, isn't it ?

[T.G.Maestro]

Of course not.

[T.G.Maestro]

I don't see how Tactics Smarter Dragons are much cheesier than this, though that is the common accusation.

They have completely illegal abilities in Tactics, thats what makes them cheesy:
- unlimited Sequencers loaded with spells like Lower Magic Resistance;
- crazy breath attacks at doubled firepower (they launch 2 breath attacks simultaneusly, which means 40D10 damage by Adalon, for example);

Edited by T.G.Maestro, 01 September 2004 - 10:30 PM.

[Rathwellin the Bard]

Well, these are good points, but our script will ignore summons (except for Planetars, Gr. Elementals and the such). About the slashing resistance, I'll add a cheap CheckStatLT to prevent wacking somebody with 100% resistance (Hardiness + Wish Hardiness + Armor of Faith = 100%, and there are other ways to achieve this as well)

I'm not sure that this is a good idea Bigg. More than once I've had a summons deal the death blow on a major foe like a dragon, and I'm not just talking the big guns. The Silver Horn Berserker has done it for me at least once for instance.

Then you have to decide what is major. Is a Mordie's Sword major or not? I *know* that I've done major damage with them. What about an Oger? Fair damage. What about the Invisible Servents? I've had them kill dragons on me.

If said dragon spends too much time going after fleeing or wing buffeted party members and ignores summons these 'minor pests' can kill him with ease.

[T.G.Maestro]

Of course there will be serious discussions before we decide the final version of the new/modified scripts. We'll have to take every single part of such a battle into consideration - as soon as we will be able to work on this part, I'll start a new topic, where everyone can post his/her ideas and suggestions on a "challanging script".

[the bigg]

Well, these are good points, but our script will ignore summons (except for Planetars, Gr. Elementals and the such). About the slashing resistance, I'll add a cheap CheckStatLT to prevent wacking somebody with 100% resistance (Hardiness + Wish Hardiness + Armor of Faith = 100%, and there are other ways to achieve this as well)

I'm not sure that this is a good idea Bigg. More than once I've had a summons deal the death blow on a major foe like a dragon, and I'm not just talking the big guns. The Silver Horn Berserker has done it for me at least once for instance.

Then you have to decide what is major. Is a Mordie's Sword major or not? I *know* that I've done major damage with them. What about an Oger? Fair damage. What about the Invisible Servents? I've had them kill dragons on me.

If said dragon spends too much time going after fleeing or wing buffeted party members and ignores summons these 'minor pests' can kill him with ease.

My intention would be to do the same as the Eclipse Five: attack PC if seen, not NearestEnemyOf, so that you can't have Firkr whack a Mordie for ages while you sit back and throw arrows. But, I'm adding that the bigger guys (namely, the HLA summons, which can deal serious damage and/or dispell your buff, maybe also the 24HD elementals and the demons) are in the same "priority list" as the PCs, not together with the othe summons. You see, wacking a Mordie isn't going to help you, and also EG Invisible Servants and the like aren't that tough (OK, try to deal 300 to 500 damages with them ).

[T.G.Maestro]

My intention would be to do the same as the Eclipse Five: attack PC if seen, not NearestEnemyOf, so that you can't have Firkr whack a Mordie for ages while you sit back and throw arrows. But, I'm adding that the bigger guys (namely, the HLA summons, which can deal serious damage and/or dispell your buff, maybe also the 24HD elementals and the demons) are in the same "priority list" as the PCs, not together with the othe summons

This should be reconsidered in a few points though. The "attack PC if seen" order is already present in some Weimeric scripts for Tactics Dragons, but in many cases it just makes their chances slimmer against a party of opponents. If the PC is, say, a mage or archer, he can throw projectiles and magical attacks at the dragon who is blocked by the tanks of the party + some minor summons. I hated this flaw in the Weimeric Firkraag script for example, it made him fall extremely easy. I say either we should make them attack the PC, the party and some tougher summons if seen (possibly always the nearest ones), and use Wing Buffet against lesser opponents, or if cornered/blocked.
Also, the breath attacks should be used with different tactics in case of different dragons - Firkraag (with his area effect firebreath) should target an area where the most opponents can be fried at the same time (if such thing is possible to script), while dragons with more centered breath attacks (like Adalon or Nizi) should target the most vulnerable opponent in sight (NOT weaker summons).
Spells and special abilities should be dicussed as well.

[Feanor]

TG, I've noticed some inconsistencies in your dragons descriptions (acordind to AD&D second edition). Let's take a look at them one by one :

1. Black Dragons don't have Insect Plague ability. They have the weaker version Summon Insects.

2. All the dragons have to much AC, far more than they have in AD&D :

- ancient black dragon : -5 AC ;
- a very old shadow dragon : -9 AC ;
- a great wyrm red dragon : -11 AC ;
- a wyrm silver dragon : -10 AC ;
- an ancient green dragon : -6 AC ;
- a wyrm red dragon : -10 AC.

Opinions, TG ?

[T.G.Maestro]

1. Black Dragons don't have Insect Plague ability. They have the weaker version Summon Insects

While this is true (in the 2nd E MM it mentions Summon Insects), even the Bioware versions of these dragons use the Insect Plague ability introduced in 3rdE. And since we really don't intend to make these creatures even more vulnerable, I say we keep the more powerful version. Anyway, you might have noticed that this component uses this logic on several other occasions as well - use the most beneficial abilities and attributes from both 2nd and 3rdE. Of course we'll try to avoid inconsistencies as often as possible.

2. All the dragons have to much AC, far more than they have in AD&D :

You see, there is a good reason for this one. Even Bioware noticed, that if they'd use the "legal" AC values for these dragons, they'd become very easy to beat. To solve this problem, they decided to make all dragons in-game Great Wyrm dragons. Now, you surely admit that this sounds silly. Dragons are supposed to be rare creatures, while a Great Wyrm is a once-in-a-lifetime experience to most.
I decided to take this out of consideration, and buffed the original values instead (and adding different and more fitting age-cathegories to the different dragons you meet in SoA and ToB). The exact same thing will be done in the case of melee damage (discussed above!).

[Feanor]

While this is true (in the 2nd E MM it mentions Summon Insects), even the Bioware versions of these dragons use the Insect Plague ability introduced in 3rdE.

Correct. But I want to remind you why the dragons received such a boost in the third edition : because characters deal a lot more damage.

You see, there is a good reason for this one. Even Bioware noticed, that if they'd use the "legal" AC values for these dragons, they'd become very easy to beat.

Not so fast, TG. They were easy to beat when they had around 150-200 HP, they scored critical hits only with rolls of 20 or 19, and they scored less damage than these versions.

Now, you surely admit that this sounds silly. Dragons are supposed to be rare creatures, while a Great Wyrm is a once-in-a-lifetime experience to most.

Agreed. But my main objection is another one : not that their AC is too high, but it is similar with the others AC. If you don't want to lower them, what if you would set the AC of the weakest dragon to -10 and give to the red dragons something like -14 or -15 (depending on their age) and we keep this way the normal difference between their AC ? Note that there are only 2 red dragons in BG2 : Firkraag and Saladrex, which obviously are not for the early stages of the game.

PS : Did you also increased the damage scored by their breath weapons, TG ? (I don't remember exactly what was their original damage for their breath weapons and I don't have BG2 installed to check) :thumb:

[T.G.Maestro]

Correct. But I want to remind you why the dragons received such a boost in the third edition : because characters deal a lot more damage

Not only. Mainly because the normal Summon Insects ability was good for nothing. To be honest, I'm fairly surprised they even assigned this to a real Dragon instead of a more powerful version...

Not so fast, TG. They were easy to beat when they had around 150-200 HP, they scored critical hits only with rolls of 20 or 19, and they scored less damage than these versions

True, but this is the goal of these modifications, isn't it? If we would make them tougher at HPs but would make them weaker at AC, we would stay where we started. BTW, in the original Bioware versions they only scored criticals at 20.

my main objection is another one : not that their AC is too high, but it is similar with the others AC

This depends on age cathegories. But yes, I'll once again revise these values once we are able to concentrate on this component, following a slightly better logic.

Did you also increased the damage scored by their breath weapons, TG ?

No, and if I recall correctly (sorry, I don't have my modifications nor the documentations before me at the moment) I even lowered one or two to match its PnP counterpart.

[Feanor]

TG, we once talked about invisibility as a spell given to dragons. We both agreed that it's quite odd for such a large creature to go unnoticed, but it's impossible to drop those spells. But what if you would create a special ability for dragons called Dragon invisibility which gives them a +4 AC and +4 THAC0 bonus. Why are my reasons : a dragon could become invisible using a spell and he won't be seen, but his opponent would know where he is because he would hear his steps and his breath. The usual invisibility grants +4 AC, a +4 THAC0 and he cannot be seen until the invisible character makes an attack. The last one is unappropriate in my opinion, because the character will know where the dragon is and where to attacks, but his hits just won't be very accurate (I mean it would be far harder to hit the dragon's vulnerable spots). Opinions ?

[T.G.Maestro]

To be honest, Invisibility was never a great pain in case of Dragons, at least not that much from a logical PoV. Sure thing, they can go invisible, but even that won't hide them completely - as you said, one will always be able to hear them move. Still, there is no need for an alternate spell, for the following reason:
The invisible state of these creatures really won't last long. They tend to attack often, whic breaks the effect immediately. Plus, even if they try to hide and cast some defensive spell (for example Heal) in the invisible state, the player will be able to see the small casting graphics of the spells, making it easy to guess the creatures location and blast it with some magic. And of course, you can still hear their in-game sounds (footsteps, shouts) as well as they pass near your character.
Another issue is I.Invisibility, and this version has even less flaws than the normal. Since as soon as the Dragon does something non-defensive (and they tend to do such things more than often), it becames partially visible, which is exactly what you are suggesting.

As a summary, I don't think we shouldn't add a new/modified spell to solve this lesser aesthetic problem.