247 replies to this topic

[T.G.Maestro]

By the way, TG, with this improvements, probably Refinements will be incompatible with Tactics, that's right ?

Partially. Tactics only changes their scripts I guess. This means if you install Tactics after Refinements (something I really wouldn't advise), those creatures would use our stats, but with Weimer's (cheesy ) scripts - and this way they would completely lose all new abilities as well.

Wouldn't it make more sense if Cromwell told you:
"Aye, ye have all ye need fer the forgin' of a great magical weapon, the mighty thunder-hammer itself! All save the scroll that tells the hammer's secret name. Now if ye be seekin' that scroll, legend speaks of it layin' in the hord of a great beast, a wyrm of shadow! Know ye where such a beast may be?"
It would give CHARNAME a solid, in-character reason for risking it all against the Shadow Dragon. A similar speech from someone at the Radiant Hart could send CHARNAME after Firkraag, gathering weapons for the final battles.

Nice suggestions. As you may noticed, I intend to give a few more dialogue options to these creatures (Nizi for example), and we could as well add some hints about the treasures the Shadow Dragon guards (if you have Freedom's Reign installed, the treasure is WAY more valuable!). The same goes for Firkraag. Suggestions on this are welcomed, since I don't really like the Cromwell idea - too direct.

Maybe a Lower Resistance + Lower Resistance + Greater Malaison + Finger of Death.  What are their saves going to be?

*MUCH* better. -depending on their subrace and age.
And they will use a few magical protections too if needed.

Edited by T.G.Maestro, 09 June 2004 - 07:18 AM.

[Feanor]

Partially. Tactics only changes their scripts I guess. This means if you install Tactics after Refinements (something I really wouldn't advise), those creatures would use our stats, but with Weimer's (cheesy  ) scripts - and this way they would completely lose all new abilities as well.

It was just a curiosity, I didn't say I would use Refinements together with Tactics (it would be crazy for me to use 2 mods which improve those dragons).

Nice suggestions. As you may noticed, I intend to give a few more dialogue options to these creatures (Nizi for example), and we could as well add some hints about the treasures the Shadow Dragon guards (if you have Freedom's Reign installed, the treasure is WAY more valuable!). The same goes for Firkraag. Suggestions on this are welcomed, since I don't really like the Cromwell idea - too direct.

I have a suggestion about it : Cromwell could tell Player he needs the scales of a shadow dragon to do the Shadow Armor. Player is not supposed to know that from the start because not all the dragon scales can be turn into an armor (Nizi and Adalon for instance).

[BobTokyo]

It would give CHARNAME a solid, in-character reason for risking it all against the Shadow Dragon. A similar speech from someone at the Radiant Hart could send CHARNAME after Firkraag, gathering weapons for the final battles.

Nice suggestions. As you may noticed, I intend to give a few more dialogue options to these creatures (Nizi for example), and we could as well add some hints about the treasures the Shadow Dragon guards (if you have Freedom's Reign installed, the treasure is WAY more valuable!). The same goes for Firkraag. Suggestions on this are welcomed, since I don't really like the Cromwell idea - too direct.

Fair enough, and thanks.

There's the question of why the Illithids are holding onto part of Crom Faer in the first place. The notes written in "Illithd Script" might be decipherable if you could find the right sage; asking at the Temple of Oghma would make sense, and could lead further if you want to keep the party running. The sage in question could then give a partial translation, revealing that the Illithid were gathering powerful surfacer artifacts as part of their own research, and that they were very interested in doccuments recently lost by a group of adventurers lead by a female halfling. . . yes, confirms Mazzy, her party's bard ("Brave Sirobin") was carrying some scrolls on legendary artifacts before the dragon attack.

For a more direct route, Firkraag's minions had the key to the sewers. Maybe Firkraag was interested in adding the hammer to his own hord, and planning to send his minions on a few little expeditions accordingly. Notes on this research could be found on the body of Firkraags pet mage (Conster?). Firkraag might offer part of the job to CHARNAME directly; Garren's child in exchange for the scroll.

And they will use a few magical protections too if needed.

Just a suggestion, but I'd much rather see more magic resistance or higher saving throws than this. Dragons don't study for their spells, and I don't really like the idea of them playing the BG Rock-Paper-Scissors magic protection game.

Edited by BobTokyo, 09 June 2004 - 07:48 AM.

[T.G.Maestro]

Bob: thanks for the suggestions on the Crom Faeyr part, I1ll consider them when time comes.

I'd much rather see more magic resistance or higher saving throws than this. Dragons don't study for their spells, and I don't really like the idea of them playing the BG Rock-Paper-Scissors magic protection game.

I agree, I don't intend to add dragons the arcane powers of a 20th level mage at all. They won't have more than 10-20 spells, and most of them will be once/day. They learn magic, its a fact. Not so intensive as a mage would do of course, but they have a millenia to aquire this knowledge. Even if they learn a spell every 200 years, they will know 10 different spells at the age of 1000. And I'm sure they learn them more often - It would seem odd to me that after defeating an old rival (another Dragon for example) and they would find a large collection of magical scrolls in its hoard, they wouldn't learn this new and powerful knowledge.
And their spellcasting abilities depend on their subrace as well - some dragons are more adept in using magic than others, some of them can even cast clerical spells as arcane.

[BobTokyo]

I don't intend to add dragons the arcane powers of a 20th level mage at all. They won't have more than 10-20 spells, and most of them will be once/day. They learn magic, its a fact. Not so intensive as a mage would do of course, but they have a millenia to aquire this knowledge. Even if they learn a spell every 200 years, they will know 10 different spells at the age of 1000. And I'm sure they learn them more often - It would seem odd to me that after defeating an old rival (another Dragon for example) and they would find a large collection of magical scrolls in its hoard, they wouldn't learn this new and powerful knowledge.
And their spellcasting abilities depend on their subrace as well - some dragons are more adept in using magic than others, some of them can even cast clerical spells as arcane.

As I said in the other thread, your mod, your version of Dragons. Officially Dragons do not study for their spells; they learn and cast them in the same way as sorcerers, through self exploration and instinct. This means that they tend to come up with a fairly random mix of spells, including clerical magic. This is also why Sorcerers are rumored to be descended from dragons.

From the 3.5 system refference doccument:

Spells: A dragon knows and casts arcane spells as a sorcerer of the level indicated in its variety description, gaining bonus spells for a high Charisma score. Some dragons can also cast spells from the cleric list or cleric domain lists as arcane spells.

Spell-Like Abilities: A dragon?s spell-like abilities depend on its age and variety. It gains the abilities indicated for its age plus all previous ones. Its age category or its sorcerer caster level, whichever is higher, is the caster level for these abilities. The save DC is 10 + dragon?s Cha modifier + spell level. All spell-like abilities are usable once per day unless otherwise noted.

http://www.systemref...tml#true-dragon

[T.G.Maestro]

Thanks for the info Bob - although it doesn't change anything, I almost forgot how they learn/use spells!

[BobTokyo]

Thanks for the info Bob - although it doesn't change anything, I almost forgot how they learn/use spells!

The whole "Dragons cast clerical spells as Arcane spells" thing was part of the reason I made my Cleric/Sorcerer semi-multi mod.

Incidently, if a dragon casts anti-magic shell, shouldn't he explode?

Edited by BobTokyo, 09 June 2004 - 08:37 AM.

[T.G.Maestro]

Theoretically yes, but we can only assume such thing. There is nothing in the description of that spell that would indicate anything like that.
And of course Dragon's would never cast that spell .

Hmm....
AFAIK Caedwyr's Pnp Celestials mod contains a Movanic Deva that can activate an Antimagic Shell at will and without suffering any injuries...and Devas have noteable MR...

[T.G.Maestro]

Added the slightly revised Green Dragon (Watcher's Keep) description to the list in the first post.
The Green Dragon in Abazigal's lair will have somewhat better stats (Ancient instead of Very Old).

[BobTokyo]

Planth Growth 1/day

No! Not Planth! Huge, stinky, gibbering piles of Planth, mocking and wheedling, singing lies! Evil, deadly Planth!

Oh, wait.

Typo.

Nevermind.

[Feanor]

The Green Dragon in Abazigal's lair will have somewhat better stats (Ancient instead of Very Old).

Do you mean Tamah, isn't it ?

Added the slightly revised Green Dragon (Watcher's Keep) description to the list in the first post.

Again, I have an objection. The last dragon from Watcher's Keep is strange and I recommend caution when dealing with it. Why do I say this ? Because that dragon does not seem to be a normal one. First, I don't remember him having a name, despite the fact that all dragons have. Second, he is a part of those three trials which player must pass to reach Demogorgon. I wonder what kind of dragon would stand there idle, waiting for adventurers to challenge (and eventually kill) him only for that Spirit who serves Helm to have his trials passed. I have the impresion he is a kind of magical dragon (I mean a kind of dragon simulacrum created through magical ways) and, therefor, not a natural one. So the normal rules don't apply to him. That's why I think we shouldn't make him more powerful, because this kind of dragon would not be as powerful as a natural one.

[T.G.Maestro]

No! Not Planth!

Eeeh..!

Do you mean Tamah, isn't it ?

No. Feanor, here is a list of all the dragons in ToB (with colors and locations):

- Draconis (son of Abazigal, male Brown Dragon, Abazigal's Lair entrance)
- Fll'Yssetat (controlled, female Green Dragon, guarding Abazigal's crystal cave)
- Tamah (controlled, female Amethyst Dragon, fighting for Abazigal -Ascension)
- Abazigal (male Blue Dragon Bhaalspawn, member of the Five)
- Saladrex (insane male Red Dragon, Watcher's Keep 4th level)
- "Dragon" (mysterious Green Dragon, Watcher's Keep final tests)

Second, he is a part of those three trials which player must pass to reach Demogorgon. I wonder what kind of dragon would stand there idle, waiting for adventurers to challenge (and eventually kill) him only for that Spirit who serves Helm to have his trials passed. I have the impresion he is a kind of magical dragon (I mean a kind of dragon simulacrum created through magical ways) and, therefor, not a natural one.

Again, good points. I'll consider this.

[T.G.Maestro]

If you take a look at the first post you'll notice that I changed the Green Dragon's description. I added these new stats to Fll'Yssetat (the dragon guarding Abazigal's crystal chamber) instead of the strange Green Dragon in WK. As Feanor noted, that dragon might be a "magical", illusionary Dragon, just as a Simulacrum. If it is possible, I'll try to make it look a Simulacrum. This means, after it is slain, it disappears instead of falling to the ground, just as any illusionary image should do. Its stats won't be really effected by Refinements' modification on these creatures.

[T.G.Maestro]

Saladrex added.

[Schatten]

what about the dragon in the hell trials?

i dont think he really is a dragon.

[Feanor]

what about the dragon in the hell trials?

i dont think he really is a dragon.

Agreed. It seems to be the same problem as the green dragon in Watcher's Keep trials. By the way, thanks for specifying the Dragon's names, TG, it's easier for me this way (because I didn't pay to much attention to dragons' colour in the past).

Another question : in SOA, when fighting dragons, you had the posibility to use a cheese tactic : remain out of dragon's sight and weak him with area-effect spells. Tactics changed this, but these improvements do not work well with Tactics. So, you intend to revise the dragon's behaviour, for them to attack the party after the first cloudkill ?

Edited by Feanor, 11 June 2004 - 02:06 AM.

[T.G.Maestro]

Another question : in SOA, when fighting dragons, you had the posibility to use a cheese tactic : remain out of dragon's sight and weak him with area-effect spells. Tactics changed this, but these improvements do not work well with Tactics. So, you intend to revise the dragon's behaviour, for them to attack the party after the first cloudkill ?

Of course. We should use every good solution from the existing scripts, but drop the cheesy ones (Adalon's "Double Cold Breath Weapon" for example). We intend to do these creatures more powerful but less cheating.

[Feanor]

I have noticed a bug about the dragons, TG. Firk, Saladrex and Fll'Yssetat claws are +2 weapons. That is totally ridiculous, because all the other dragons have +5 claws.
By the way, if you revise the Five too, there is a similar problem with Draconis and Abazigal. Their claws are +4 weapons. It should be +5.

[T.G.Maestro]

Should they be +5? I never saw this mentioned anywhere. Is this connected to age cathegories too?
Some info would be appreciated (at the moment I intend to use +4 for all dragons).