247 replies to this topic

[Schatten]

no no no. dont get me wrong. as i said in my first post i like the changes except the hp. this only stretches the battle. i trust you to find the proper values.
i dont find arguments based on a 3 man gang valied when it comes to balance issues. when doing this you must do it with a full party and non to moderate modded game, imo.

[BobTokyo]

So, when do you want the players to fight the Shadow Dragon and Firkraag? Are you planning on having them as the last fights before heading into the end game, or as late game fights, or as...

Definitely not at level 10 as you described it. Players should learn that there are limits. Not every opponent should be beatable, at least not without a cost.
And to tell the truth, I'd find it much more believeable that a powerful 18th level party at the gates of suldanesselar would decide to settle the score with Firkraag than the version where they attack him at first sight (because a paladin HAS to attack something that is EEEEEVIL) and slay him on the spot after a 3 minute battle...

My CHARNAMEs generally killed him on the spot just for being smug.

So, you see the fight with Firkraag as taking place late in Chapter Six. When do you see the fight with the Shadow Dragon hapenning?

Also, in-game what reason does the character have for going back for those fights in chapter six? My CHARNAME usually killed one or both beasties on the way to the Underdark, or (in the case of Firkraag) as one of the Paladin quests. Any chance of getting a rumor that Firkraag holds the Holy Avenger and that the Shadow Dragon has a unique scroll that will permit the forging of a powerful weapon? Something that would make a character chasing his or her soul and trying to save a city take the time to do the side quests?

[T.G.Maestro]

So, you see the fight with Firkraag as taking place late in Chapter Six. When do you see the fight with the Shadow Dragon hapenning?

Um, why do you want to fight that dragon that much???
You know, I find this one of the greatest problems with the BG2 system compared to pnp. While in classic pnp the characters must risk to lose their life permanently by attacking sucha creature at level 10, in BG2 you have the good-old reload ability. This makes players think they have to kill all the monsters, finish all quests, solve all the misteries in their wake without exceptions. To be honest, I'd never mind if some players would avoid Thax completely. It would really add a new factor to this game I think. Or they could always attack it even at low levels, but the chances of getting out alive from that encounter would be slim. Just as they should be when facing a creature like that (at non-epic levels). Yet if the party has any specific or personal reason to go back and engage those creatures (like Kangaxx and Firkraag), its their choice. Both of these foes are optional, and their death won't grant the party tremendous XP either.

Also, in-game what reason does the character have for going back for those fights in chapter six?

Nothing. Normally, you wouldn't go back. You'd feel yourself lucky that you escaped their presence once and for all.

[Jinnai]

Um, why do you want to fight that dragon that much???
You know, I find this one of the greatest problems with the BG2 system compared to pnp. While in classic pnp the characters must risk to lose their life permanently by attacking sucha creature at level 10, in BG2 you have the good-old reload ability. This makes players think they have to kill all the monsters, finish all quests, solve all the misteries in their wake without exceptions. To be honest, I'd never mind if some players would avoid Thax completely. It would really add a new factor to this game I think. Or they could always attack it even at low levels, but the chances of getting out alive from that encounter would be slim. Just as they should be when facing a creature like that (at non-epic levels). Yet if the party has any specific or personal reason to go back and engage those creatures (like Kangaxx and Firkraag), its their choice. Both of these foes are optional, and their death won't grant the party tremendous XP either.

That's the crux of the problem...there is no iron man mode which gets rid of the temptation which we all give into eventually (atleast i'd like someone here to say without jest and in all seriousness) they restart a game once you die and never reload for anything.

IMO if you go back later though, the battle should be tougher, if for no other reason a new spell or two, more magical items that they've aquired to aid them from other foolish advanturers, etc. Nothing major though.

[BobTokyo]

That's the crux of the problem...there is no iron man mode which gets rid of the temptation which we all give into eventually (atleast i'd like someone here to say without jest and in all seriousness) they restart a game once you die and never reload for anything.

Without jesting and in all seriousness, I've finished the game in Iron-man mode through BP-BGT-NEJ, and through good old SOA by itself many times, almost always on core difficulty. I've also played the reload until you win game, especially the first few times I played and when I first added Tactics and Improved Battles. These days I still play Ironman, but then I also rarely bother to play all the way through; usually I'm just playing to try out a new mod.

So, it is possible, and I'm sure other gamers must do this as well.

[BobTokyo]

Also, in-game what reason does the character have for going back for those fights in chapter six?

Nothing. Normally, you wouldn't go back. You'd feel yourself lucky that you escaped their presence once and for all.

Well gosh, that's heroic.

[Jinnai]

some things after reviewing my 3.5 book

1. For those who say these hps are high, they're actually all below the average suggested for their age and type category

2. What spells will you be giving them? all of what you've mentioned are inates, not spells.

3. Silver dragon should also get control weather as well, my guess would be something similar the druidic HLA.

[BobTokyo]

Also, in-game what reason does the character have for going back for those fights in chapter six?

Nothing. Normally, you wouldn't go back. You'd feel yourself lucky that you escaped their presence once and for all.

Well gosh, that's heroic.

Additional:

This reminds me of an exchange I had with Domi relating to her Valygar romance mod. Domi wanted Valygar to comment on how absurd it was for six men to go up against an army. I suggested that by the time TOB occurs, CHARNAME and Co are exactly the sort of absurd, over the top mythic heroes who can go six against an army and win; Domi (quite reasonably) disagreed on the grounds that the idea was just silly. I argued that silly or not, it fit the setting.

Part of my reservations about this portion of the refinements mod comes from my feeling that CHARNAME and Co. are exactly the sorts of heroes who should be able to slay dragons. After all, Drizzt and Caddely both did it single handed, and CHARNAME has met both of them. CHARNAME may even have killed Drizzt, maybe twice. Others tend to disagree with this idea on the quite reasonable grounds that a small human with a piece of pointy metal killing a twenty ton flying fire breathing lizard is just silly. I accept that it's silly; I still say that it fits the setting.

Faerun is a silly place.

Edited by BobTokyo, 08 June 2004 - 09:03 PM.

[BobTokyo]

some things after reviewing my 3.5 book

1. For those who say these hps are high, they're actually all below the average suggested for their age and type category

From a pure rules POV, that doesn't mean much. PnP characters also have more HP and do more damage in 3.5. The HP boost is meant to raise the difficulty of the encounters, not bring the in line with the pen and paper rules.

Note that I'm not saying it's automatically a bad idea to raise the difficulty of the encounters; I'm mostly making suggestions on things to consider as that is done.

[Jinnai]

some things after reviewing my 3.5 book

1. For those who say these hps are high, they're actually all below the average suggested for their age and type category

From a pure rules POV, that doesn't mean much. PnP characters also have more HP and do more damage in 3.5. The HP boost is meant to raise the difficulty of the encounters, not bring the in line with the pen and paper rules.

Note that I'm not saying it's automatically a bad idea to raise the difficulty of the encounters; I'm mostly making suggestions on things to consider as that is done.

Only the pc really has higher than normal hp, although imoen should as well because its attributed to the pc's Bhaal essence.

[Feanor]

Really Schatten, take a look ath the new stats of Thax once again. What scares you so much? 

As for me, only his level-draining breath scares me.

When do you see the fight with the Shadow Dragon hapenning?

In Chapter Six and I have strong reasons for it. Probably you want Crom Faeyr, but you also need the Girdle of Frost Giant Strength, which is in Underdark. That's why I let Thax alive until I return from Underdark.

some things after reviewing my 3.5 book

1. For those who say these hps are high, they're actually all below the average suggested for their age and type category

2. What spells will you be giving them? all of what you've mentioned are inates, not spells.

3. Silver dragon should also get control weather as well, my guess would be something similar the druidic HLA.

Jinnai, I really wish to survive those encounters...
By the way, I understand that Creature Revision part will be optional... People seem to miss this part.

By the way, TG, with this improvements, probably Refinements will be incompatible with Tactics, that's right ?

[Rathwellin the Bard]

If I'm playing a Ranger or a Mage then the Shadow Dragon encounter *always* happens in chapter 2. Other PCs vary. Some in 2 others in 6.

It's *very* rare for me to not slay it before the shade lord ... though it's happened a time or two when my party was too weak.

[BobTokyo]

When do you see the fight with the Shadow Dragon hapenning?

In Chapter Six and I have strong reasons for it. Probably you want Crom Faeyr

This is actually a good, in genre reason for going after a dragon. However, your character has no way of knowing that the Shadow Dragon has the Crom Faer scroll. Wouldn't it make more sense if Cromwell told you:
"Aye, ye have all ye need fer the forgin' of a great magical weapon, the mighty thunder-hammer itself! All save the scroll that tells the hammer's secret name. Now if ye be seekin' that scroll, legend speaks of it layin' in the hord of a great beast, a wyrm of shadow! Know ye where such a beast may be?"
It would give CHARNAME a solid, in-character reason for risking it all against the Shadow Dragon. A similar speech from someone at the Radiant Hart could send CHARNAME after Firkraag, gathering weapons for the final battles.

If you're going to upgrade creatures anyway, why not give in-character reasons to fight them while you're at it?

[Feanor]

This is actually a good, in genre reason for going after a dragon. However, your character has no way of knowing that the Shadow Dragon has the Crom Faer scroll. Wouldn't it make more sense if Cromwell told you:
"Aye, ye have all ye need fer the forgin' of a great magical weapon, the mighty thunder-hammer itself! All save the scroll that tells the hammer's secret name. Now if ye be seekin' that scroll, legend speaks of it layin' in the hord of a great beast, a wyrm of shadow! Know ye where such a beast may be?"
It would give CHARNAME a solid, in-character reason for risking it all against the Shadow Dragon.

Tell that to TG, it's not my mod, but I like the idea. It would make indeed more sense.

A similar speech from someone at the Radiant Hart could send CHARNAME after Firkraag, gathering weapons for the final battles.

Bob, there is such speech. If your character is a paladin, then Prelate Wessalen tells you that Firk has a Holy Avenger.

Edited by Feanor, 09 June 2004 - 04:56 AM.

[BobTokyo]

A similar speech from someone at the Radiant Hart could send CHARNAME after Firkraag, gathering weapons for the final battles.

Bob, there is such speech. If your character is a paladin, then Prelate Wessalen tells you that Firk has a Holy Avenger.

True. I was thinking about parties that get the Holy Avenger for use by Keldorn.

[Feanor]

A similar speech from someone at the Radiant Hart could send CHARNAME after Firkraag, gathering weapons for the final battles.

Bob, there is such speech. If your character is a paladin, then Prelate Wessalen tells you that Firk has a Holy Avenger.

True. I was thinking about parties that get the Holy Avenger for use by Keldorn.

Then I totally agree. I never understood why that Prelate does not mention at all Carsomyr if you're not a paladin.

[the bigg]

Hmm, I think that as a joint member I should say something, but... you talk abot "too much HPs", while scripts have little to do with it Seriously, though, a simple Finger of Death should be enough

[Schatten]

you better do what you say yourself. do you know how many times i needed to reload to kill the stupid dragon that spawns exactly where you enter the map (one of those wood maps)? no? i dont know either but it was stretched over two days because i lost patiences. on top of it i always got nailed with two dragon breaths. at last i had to resort to cheese to kill it. (tripple fod and such things.)

[BobTokyo]

Seriously, though, a simple Finger of Death should be enough

Maybe a Lower Resistance + Lower Resistance + Greater Malaison + Finger of Death. What are their saves going to be?

Seriously, I'm not suggesting that these Dragons can't be defeated. I'm interested in how, when and why the party will face them. T.G.'s (half-joking) answer seems to be "They shouldn't". If anything I'm hoping to convince him that it would be more fun to give the party an in game reason to do so.

[BobTokyo]

you better do what you say yourself. do you know how many times i needed to reload to kill the stupid dragon that spawns exactly where you enter the map (one of those wood maps)? no? i dont know either but it was stretched over two days because i lost patiences. on top of it i always got nailed with two dragon breaths. at last i had to resort to cheese to kill it. (tripple fod and such things.)

I will never understand why folks think multiple spells are cheesy but loading up characters with hundreds of thousands of gold pieces worth of magical equipment isn't.