247 replies to this topic

[T.G.Maestro]

That's about Nizzy : isn't too much to give him Insect Plague ? I mean I totally agree to improve Dragons abilities to fight in melee, but, still, I think they should be weak spellcasters.

Two important things to note here Feanor:
- Nizi already had the Insect Plague ability, and uses it every time you battle him in SoA, just as he uses Planth Growth (an more powerful version of the druidic Entangle).
- Dragons are good spellcasters with or without Refinements. They have hundreds and thousands of years to learn and aquire every kind of knowledge, and they are indeed very adept in using magic. Dragon magic works somewhat similar to the classic magic system, but it has its unique characteristics as well. Let me quote the following lines from the 2nd E MM about Dragon magic:

Dragons learn spells haphazardly over the years. The DM should randomly determine which spells any particular dragon knows. The dragon can cast each spell once per day, unless random determination indicates the same spell more than once, in which case the dragon can cast it more than once a day. Dragons to not use spell books or pray to deities; they simply sleep, concentrate when they awaken, and remember their spells. Dragon spells have only a verbal component; the spells have a casting time of 1, regardless of level. Dragons cannot physically attack, use their breath weapon, use their magical abilities, or fly (except to glide) while casting a spell.

[BobTokyo]

I wanted to say that this Firkraag could be beaten by a party in SOA (remember that in SOA you could reach, even without any mods, around 3,5-3,7 million XP).

Feanor, the XP cap in an unmodded game of SOA is 2,950,000. The only ways to get past that are to install TOB or an experience cap remover.

[Feanor]

"Still, if these HPs prove unbeatable, we can tone them down by 20% or so."

the other dragons seems beatable. only the 560 and 650 are over the top for me.

Schat, remember the fight with Irenicus in Hell from Tactics. He has a Dragon, an Elder Orb, Sarevok wraith and an improved mordekainen sword (and they steal some of your equipment). So, maybe Firk is harder to beat, but not impossible (at 3 million XP and above).

[SimDing0]

Schat, remember the fight with Irenicus in Hell from Tactics. He has a Dragon, an Elder Orb, Sarevok wraith and an improved mordekainen sword (and they steal some of your equipment). So, maybe Firk is harder to beat, but not impossible (at 3 million XP and above).

Basing anything on Improved Irenicus brings a tear to my eye.

[BobTokyo]

Is there any way to make the versions of the Shadow Dragon and Firkraag you face level based? Say standard (or Tactics) Shadow Dragon from levels 8-13, the Refinements Shadow Dragon at levels 14+?

Right now, a typical party can start chapter 1, get a hint to go to the government district for a job to raise money, go to the Umar hills, go to the shade lord's dungeon, face the shadow dragon at around level 10, and then start chapter 2, all without doing anything out-of-character for a good aligned CHARNAME. It fits the genre. If this version of the Shadow Dragon is in place, the party will need to skip that fight; that is not in genre for many types of good aligned parties ("And then the noble Cleric of Lathander and his heavilly armed friends decided to let a creature of pure evil continue to terrorize and destroy, because they knew that the player had installed a mod that made it far too tough to tackle at this point in their careers").

You could make more of a case for backing down from Firkraag as in-genre, but the shadow dragon is a pet, not a main adversary.

Edited by BobTokyo, 08 June 2004 - 08:55 AM.

[SimDing0]

It's not exactly out of character for a player to say "I have no chance against this" and come back to deal with it later, which is exactly what a level 10 party should be thinking when they see a dragon.

Edited by SimDing0, 08 June 2004 - 09:07 AM.

[BobTokyo]

It's not exactly out of character for a player to say "I have no chance against this" and come back to deal with it later, which is exactly what a level 10 party should be thinking when they see a dragon.

Maybe I have too much of a Pen and Paper POV; a fully equipped and prepared level 10 party feels like a match for a minor dragon to me, and I never thought of the Shadow Dragon as anything but a minion of the Shade Lord. Is there an in-game reason for assuming it's a "very old" dragon?

Edited by BobTokyo, 08 June 2004 - 09:19 AM.

[SimDing0]

I don't recall any implication either way.

[Rathwellin the Bard]

I'm with Bob on this one ... but that level drain always ticked me off. Would have been better on an Undead dragon IMO.

[BobTokyo]

I don't recall any implication either way.

Fair enough. What we do know is that he's a minion of the Shade Lord, and that the Sade Lord is and should be beatable by a 9th-11th level party. Why would a Very Old Dragon be working for anyone, let alone someone that much less powerful? I'd suggest making the encounter level based (drop it down to a young dragon for lower level parties), or changing the dialog to suggest that the Dragon is simply tollerating the Shade Lord, not serving him.

[SimDing0]

Hmm. I agree with you that the Shadow Dragon is a young dragon. But where does it say he is serving the Shade Lord?

[Schatten]

Schat, remember the fight with Irenicus in Hell from Tactics. He has a Dragon, an Elder Orb, Sarevok wraith and an improved mordekainen sword (and they steal some of your equipment). So, maybe Firk is harder to beat, but not impossible (at 3 million XP and above).

i find this battle pretty tough.

the battles shouldnt be endless reload orgies. a 900hp red dragon (35% res for phys, 40%mag res, fire immune, rest 20%) with a near end soa party or even with one hla is too much. dont forget the team wants to add minions to some of the dragons. imagine someone wants to play only one or two mods? he cant do this with dragon revision.
the question is more on what basis do we argue? high end npcs with 4mio exp by returning from underdark? what mods are there? 90%vorpal hit weapon mods? orig bg2/tob? this will determine how the dragons look like.

Edited by Schatten, 08 June 2004 - 09:50 AM.

[Feanor]

Why would a Very Old Dragon be working for anyone, let alone someone that much less powerful?

I can give you 2 reasons :
1. Shade Dragon is under a geas.
2. Shade Lord bribed the dragon.

there an in-game reason for assuming it's a "very old" dragon?

No, but there are some indirect clues. First, Mazzy describes the Dragon as a very powerful creature who defeated her team without any effort.
Second, the game gives you that stone which allows you to go unnoticed by the dragon and that priestess (Amuana) advises you to use the stone. That means the Shade Dragon was indeed supposed to be very powerful (not beatable by a party under 1 million XP).
Third, his AC is the one of a very old dragon.

[BobTokyo]

Hmm. I agree with you that the Shadow Dragon is a young dragon. But where does it say he is serving the Shade Lord?

I think I got that impression from Mazzy's dialog, the priestess' dialog, and the option you have of taunting the Shade Lord with something like "I killed your Dragon, what do you think I'll do to you". OTOH CHARNAME might just be wrong.

Thinking about it, I'd like to see their relationship clarified one way or another. Two powerful "evils" in the same place should have some reason for working together.

[Feanor]

Schat, remember the fight with Irenicus in Hell from Tactics. He has a Dragon, an Elder Orb, Sarevok wraith and an improved mordekainen sword (and they steal some of your equipment). So, maybe Firk is harder to beat, but not impossible (at 3 million XP and above).

i find this battle pretty tough.

the battles shouldnt be endless reload orgies. a 900hp red dragon (35% res for phys, 40%mag res, fire immune, rest 20%) with a near end soa party or even with one hla is too much. dont forget the team wants to add minions to some of the dragons. imagine someone wants to play only one or two mods? he cant do this with dragon revision.
the question is more on what basis do we argue? high end npcs with 4mio exp by returning from underdark? what mods are there? 90%vorpal hit weapon mods? orig bg2/tob? this will determine how the dragons look like.

First, TG says that Firk won't have minions.
Second, a party can reach around 3,5 million XP without any mods. And if you do some quest with fewer party members, the XP will be even higher.
Third, I really believe that TG will test those dragons and lower their bonuses if they are too tough.
I just wanted to point that I don't find Firk's HP so scary. But, until I'll try it, I'm half-blind.

Edited by Feanor, 08 June 2004 - 10:02 AM.

[BobTokyo]

a party can reach around 3,5 million XP without any mods. And if you do some quest with fewer party members, the XP will be even higher.

About this figure: Maybe you might reach 3mil+ XP in SOA without mods as long as you have an XP cap remover or TOB. So, when do you want the players to fight the Shadow Dragon and Firkraag? Are you planning on having them as the last fights before heading into the end game, or as late game fights, or as...

[Littiz]

About the not-usable potions, there's an opcode (180) called disallow item. You could use it (for every potion) to make potions non-usable. I believe it's the same thing as what Littiz had done with use Scrolls.

Nope.

I discarded that solution, since while that opcode makes indeed an item unusable, it won't ever let it glow red, as it should.
I've made them "truly" unusable

Official Welcome in the team, BTW

[Schatten]

First, TG says that Firk won't have minions.
Second, a party can reach around 3,5 million XP without any mods. And if you do some quest with fewer party members, the XP will be even higher.
Third, I really believe that TG will test those dragons and lower their bonuses if they are too tough.
I just wanted to point that I don't find Firk's HP so scary. But, until I'll try it, I'm half-blind.

"the question is more on what basis do we argue? high end npcs with 4mio exp by returning from underdark? what mods are there? 90%vorpal hit weapon mods? orig bg2/tob? this will determine how the dragons look like. "

am i allowed to quote myself?
sure. a three man team can annihilate everything. i even imagine i could beat the entire game without reloading with all kind of mods. but this has nothing to do with it. do you think balancing this way is really good balancing? i think this is a very, very bad balancing. and if memory serves the target of this mod is to balance the game and make the battles more fun and challengeing and not powergamers wet dreams.
and again i say, a party should not have 3.5mio exp at this point and i dont think all dragon fights should be the last. i think about the shadow dragon here. he seems okay to beat before go go to the underdark. firkraag should definatly be one of the last fights. and the others are set in stone.

[T.G.Maestro]

there an in-game reason for assuming it's a "very old" dragon?

Take a look at her original Bioware stats - they are the stats of a Great Wyrm level Shadow Dragon following the 2ndE rules... if anything, this indicates she should be even more powerful than the current version in Refinements.
Still, I wanted to point out the difference between age cathegories by giving her a Very Old status only - she is significantly weaker compared to any other SoA dragons this way. I gave only Firkraag the Great Wyrm level, I think none of the other SoA dragons could fit in to this cathegory.

but that level drain always ticked me off

I already mentioned that her Shadow Dragon Breath is way inferior to the true pnp version.

Why would a Very Old Dragon be working for anyone, let alone someone that much less powerful?

I can give you 2 reasons :
1. Shade Dragon is under a geas.
2. Shade Lord bribed the dragon.

And don't forget that we can assume that this Shade Lord is only a "shadow" of its true power - he needs to possess a mortal body, and this could weaken him. We don't know how powerful he might be on the Plane of Shade for example (where he made the pact with that Dragon I guess).

So, when do you want the players to fight the Shadow Dragon and Firkraag? Are you planning on having them as the last fights before heading into the end game, or as late game fights, or as...

Definitely not at level 10 as you described it. Players should learn that there are limits. Not every opponent should be beatable, at least not without a cost.
And to tell the truth, I'd find it much more believeable that a powerful 18th level party at the gates of suldanesselar would decide to settle the score with Firkraag than the version where they attack him at first sight (because a paladin HAS to attack something that is EEEEEVIL) and slay him on the spot after a 3 minute battle...

Official Welcome in the team, BTW

Indeed! Welcome bigg!

[T.G.Maestro]

i dont think all dragon fights should be the last. i think about the shadow dragon here. he seems okay to beat before go go to the underdark. firkraag should definatly be one of the last fights. and the others are set in stone.

Really Schatten, take a look ath the new stats of Thax once again. What scares you so much?
I made her the weakest by intent. And that 310 HP value is nothing serious. Not even for a mid-level party. And aside from the HPs, nothing really changed...
And as you say, the other Dragon encounters are set. At the time you'll face Nizi, the party should be anough to deal with him. If not, there will be a new option to bribe him without losing your equipment. And about Firkraag - don't get me wrong here, I really don't want to turn this battle into a "powergamer's wet dream", as you put it.

I just want to make it sure that most parties WON'T BE ABLE TO BEAT HIM at low/mid levels. There is nothing new or over-the-top here - I just want to show players that there are limits, even in a game like this. And while every limit can be surpassed, one must pay for such a victory.