247 replies to this topic

[Schatten]

that is a most brilliant idea rathwellin. not sleep in the dungeon and such a great script will make this fight really

[Feanor]

hlidskialf, on Sep 11 2004, 07:35 AM, said:

I always liked the old PnP method of beefing dragons by letting them use some of their hoard magic. Rings, wands, scrolls. Maybe the odd figurine, that kinda thing. It doesn't tend to unbalance things really, and is quite easy to still tailor the item types to the dragon's personality. (Imagine a red dragon with a ring of frost resistance 'eh?) Smart AI and use of magic items are far better IMO than arbitrary resistances or spell ability the beasties aren't supposed to have. B)

Good idea. Hlid, though we must be careful what kind of items a dragon can use. For instance, a dragon could not use a ring because he could not (at least in dragon form) put it on his finger. Andm BTW, dragons gather those huge amounts of treasure just for passion, not because they would plan to use them somehow. They just have a kind of obsession for treasures.

[hlidskialf]

Well, rings size themselves to fit the finger from giant to halfling. The ol' PnP community (never universally mind you) used to think that it'd fit on a dragon's talon just fine. That they were dextrous enough to use rings, wands, scrolls, yada.
As for their other treasures, besides the obvious loot-love they have, they'd collect items that can hurt them. (To destroy or hide if they can't destroy them.) Additionally, they seem to get all the "dragonslayer" type items (Armour, etc...) when they kill the hopeful creature that unsuccessfully used it on the last incursion into the beastie's lair.
It's really not a stretch of disbelief IMO.

[T.G.Maestro]

A good and useable idea Hlid, one that makes these creatures tougher without using cheesy methods. I'll definitely think about it once we get there.

[Galactygon]

Making them more realistic is something else I might suggest. Obviously, a stupid ogre (taken right out of Shrek) will not care whether he is hitting a mage or a fighter and will not know the difference between enemies and allies if too much magic is going about.

Just my view of what realistic should be like.

-Galactygon

[T.G.Maestro]

Agreed, Galactygon, I share your thoughts on this point.
Luckily, dragons are considered quite intelligent beings...

Edited by T.G.Maestro, 12 September 2004 - 07:06 AM.

[Feanor]

Galactygon, on Sep 12 2004, 05:28 PM, said:

Making them more realistic is something else I might suggest. Obviously, a stupid ogre (taken right out of Shrek) will not care whether he is hitting a mage or a fighter and will not know the difference between enemies and allies if too much magic is going about.

Just my view of what realistic should be like.

-Galactygon

I don't get it, what has an ogre to do with our dragons ? And, BTW, dragons are very intelligent creatures.

[Galactygon]

I was generalizing (to add to Hlid's post), and ogre was only an example.

Of the dragons, not all of them are intelligent, of course.

-Galactygon

[Feanor]

Galactygon, on Sep 12 2004, 05:59 PM, said:

I was generalizing (to add to Hlid's post), and ogre was only an example.

Of the dragons, not all of them are intelligent, of course.

-Galactygon

Of all the dragons in BG2, maybe Thax and Niz could be considered less intelligent, in my opinion.

[T.G.Maestro]

But even less inteligent would mean about 15 INT, which doesn't makes much difference from 18-20 when it comes to combat strategy. It makes a greater difference in spellcasting and magical capabilities though.

[Littiz]

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But even less inteligent would mean about 15 INT, which doesn't makes much difference from 18-20 when it comes to combat strategy.

beware what people with 18-20 INT are capable of...



J/K

[T.G.Maestro]

Lucky me, since there seems to be more than enough 18+ INT characters running around these forum lately... guess we'll never run out of wise people!

[Schatten]

T.G.Maestro, on Sep 13 2004, 08:32 AM, said:

Lucky me, since there seems to be more than enough 18+ INT characters running around these forum lately... guess we'll never run out of wise people!

i, like, counter that and stuff. my int is, like, 5 or so.

[T.G.Maestro]

I'd suggest anyone to read this through. This is exactly what we MIGHT use for the Dragons component - where/if needed of course. It is 3.5E, but it can be translated well into "BG2E" with the proper modifications.

DRAGON, ADVANCED

The standard advancement rules allow dragons theoretically infinite progression even beyond the stage of great wyrm. The following rules let dragons improve more than their Hit Dice as they progress to epic heights of power.

Age Category: A standard dragon gains one ?virtual age category? for every 3 Hit Dice it gains beyond the great wyrm stage. Abilities that function once per day per age category or otherwise use the dragon?s age category as part of a calculation use this adjusted number. Epic dragons gain one age category per 5 Hit Dice beyond great wyrm.
Size: One important element of dragon advancement is increasing size. The dragons that don?t reach Colossal size by the great wyrm stage can never reach it according to the standard advancement rules. When advancing a dragon, consider its basic size group: lesser (white, black, brass, and copper dragons), ordinary (green, blue, and bronze dragons), greater (silver, red, and gold), or epic (force and prismatic). A dragon that is Tiny as a wyrmling is in the lesser group, a dragon that is Small as a wyrmling and never reaches Colossal size is in the ordinary group, and a dragon that is Small to Large as a wyrmling and reaches Colossal by the great wyrm stage is in the greater group. A lesser dragon becomes Colossal when it gains two age categories (6 Hit Dice) beyond great wyrm. It increases to Colossal+ when it gains an additional four age categories (12 HD). An ordinary dragon becomes Colossal when it gains one age category (3 Hit Dice) beyond great wyrm. It increases to Colossal+ when it gains an additional four age categories (12 HD). A greater dragon becomes Colossal+ when it gains four age categories (12 HD) more than it needed to reach the Colossal size.
Epic dragons, already Colossal+ by the time they reach the great wyrm stage, do not increase in size thereafter. Use the information presented under the epic dragon entry, below, to determine the statistics of a Colossal+ dragon.
Armor Class: A dragon?s natural armor bonus increases by +1 for every Hit Die it gains beyond the great wyrm stage. (This rule applies for lesser dragon advancement as well, since natural armor and Hit Dice always increase at the same rate.)
Breath Weapon: If a dragon?s breath weapon deals damage, the damage typically increases by 2 dice for every virtual age category the dragon gains. The two exceptions among standard dragons are the brass and white dragons, whose breath weapon damage increases by only 1 die per age category. The saving throw DC against a dragon?s breath weapon remains 10 + 1/2 the dragon?s Hit Dice + its Constitution modifier.
Spell Resistance: For standard advanced dragons, spell resistance increases by 2 per additional age category. For epic dragons, spell resistance increases by 3 (for force dragons) or 6 (for prismatic dragons) per additional age category.
Speed: When a dragon becomes Colossal, its fly speed increases by 50 feet and its maneuverability becomes clumsy. When it reaches Colossal+, its fly speed increases by another 50 feet, and its maneuverability remains clumsy. A dragon?s land speed and other special movement types (swim, burrow, and so on) do not change.
Ability Scores: A great wyrm?s Strength and Constitution scores both increase by +2 for every virtual age category the dragon gains. Its Dexterity remains unchanged. Its Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma increase by +2 for every two age categories the dragon gains.
Special Abilities: Dragons do not gain additional spell-like abilities, but their damage reduction continues to increase as they gain Hit Dice. For most dragons (the exceptions being the force and prismatic dragons), the great wyrm?s damage reduction increases to 15/epic after exceeding the great wyrm age category and the dragon?s natural weapons count as epic weapons for the purposes of bypassing damage reduction.
Force and prismatic dragons have the following DR progression: wyrmling 10/magic, young 15/magic, young adult 15/epic, mature adult 20/epic, very old 25/epic.

Caster Level: A great wyrm?s caster level increases by 2 for every virtual age category the dragon gains. As with the epic dragons described later, advanced dragons gain the Improved Spell Capacity feat as a bonus feat once for every three caster levels above 20th.
Feats: Like ordinary dragons, advanced dragons receive one feat for every 3 Hit Dice they have. Feats gained after the dragon attains great wyrm status can be epic feats.
Challenge Rating: For standard dragons, CR increases by 2 per additional age category. For epic dragons, CR increases by 3 per additional age category. All other dragon statistics are as presented for dragons in general and specific dragon varieties.

[Nerik]

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Armor Class: A dragon?s natural armor bonus increases by +1 for every Hit Die it gains beyond the great wyrm stage. (This rule applies for lesser dragon advancement as well, since natural armor and Hit Dice always increase at the same rate.)

This would, of course, translate to -1 per Hid Die gained

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Breath Weapon: ... The saving throw DC against a dragon?s breath weapon remains 10 + 1/2 the dragon?s Hit Dice + its Constitution modifier.

Hmm... having saving throw dificulties based on the power of the creature creating the effect is a 3rd. ed. thing (not that its a bad idea) - if you did this for Dragons, you might want to apply it to others as well (i.e. every creature with an effect that grants a save - oh, and every spell with a save as well )

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Special Abilities: ... For most dragons (the exceptions being the force and prismatic dragons), the great wyrm?s damage reduction increases to 15/epic after exceeding the great wyrm age category and the dragon?s natural weapons count as epic weapons for the purposes of bypassing damage reduction.

IIRC I don't think its possible to do 3rd. ed. style damage resistance under the BG II Infinity Engine - but this could translate (somehow) to a %age physical damage resistance.

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Feats: Like ordinary dragons, advanced dragons receive one feat for every 3 Hit Dice they have. Feats gained after the dragon attains great wyrm status can be epic feats.

Dragons with HLAs eek!

Charles

[the bigg]

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IIRC I don't think its possible to do 3rd. ed. style damage resistance under the BG II Infinity Engine - but this could translate (somehow) to a %age physical damage resistance.

I'd leave this be, since we'd have to give 80% (or more) damage resistance to all dragons. Say, an Adamantine Golem who can also beat you up...

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Dragons with HLAs eek! 

Well, Thax could improve his breath attack by casting "Dragon's Breath". Firkraag would look dope by doing this, thoug

[Stone Wolf]

I don't know, I think a saving throw penalty versus ancient dragons makes sense. HLAs would make sense too.

[T.G.Maestro]

Assuming the nature of these improvements on Dragons in SoA/ToB, one can expect a few REALLY nasty encounters - if one decides to fight, that is.
Of course I'd like to note that only a very few Dragons will have this age cathegory in Refinements, maybe only Firkraag. Most of the others will range between Very Old and Wyrm level.

Edited by T.G.Maestro, 29 September 2004 - 02:55 AM.

[Stone Wolf]

Heh, the temptation to add an epic level pair of Astral Dragons is growing.