247 replies to this topic

[Feanor]

TG, your dragons still have Heal spells ? The original ones had such spells (but they only used them if they were attacked from distance with area-affecting spells, not in melee, probably a bug).

[T.G.Maestro]

TG, your dragons still have Heal spells ?

Probably not all of them, but yes, some of them will have it . Adalon for example, and maybe Firkraag.

The original ones had such spells (but they only used them if they were attacked from distance with area-affecting spells, not in melee, probably a bug).

Um, no, they tried to use it on some occasion, but it was very random. Adalon tried it more often than the others though.

[Feanor]

Probably not all of them, but yes, some of them will have it  . Adalon for example, and maybe Firkraag.

Heh, that's concerning, because if Firk would be able to heal his enormous HP, then... RUN AWAY, ADVENTURER !

[T.G.Maestro]

Heh, that's concerning, because if Firk would be able to heal his enormous HP, then... RUN AWAY, ADVENTURER !

Exactly.

[Feanor]

Heh, that's concerning, because if Firk would be able to heal his enormous HP, then... RUN AWAY, ADVENTURER !

Exactly.

Though there is an antidote for that, too. If your mages cast 3 lower resistance, 1 greater malison and then finger of death, it will fall like a cat, it won't matter even if he had 1000 HP. hehe

[T.G.Maestro]

I already considered this option too .
I'm sure a biiig-baaad dragon would dknow this weak point, and would try to build up notable defenses against such an attack...

[Feanor]

I'm sure a biiig-baaad dragon would dknow this weak point, and would try to build up notable defenses against such an attack...

Uhm... How ?

PS : I'm not so sure about that, because the red dragons are known to be overconfidents about themselves, they would despise their opponents and won't prepare too much a battle.

[Rathwellin the Bard]

TGM, Dragons are not godlings. I don't mind you making them tougher via scripting and tweaking a few things, but giving them resistance, immunity, or a way to counter lower resistance is too much.

*Everything* has weaknesses even big bad mighty dragons.

My gut feeling is that I forsee dragons becoming just plain silly if changes are made to make them resistant to everything.

[T.G.Maestro]

Heya Rathwellin, I'm sure you don't know me as someone who makes silly things!
Of course, I NEVER said I will:

giving them resistance, immunity, or a way to counter lower resistance

.

I don't mind you making them tougher via scripting and tweaking a few things

Thats all I'm going to do - and hey, whats wrong if Adalon casts Death Ward for example? Would you consider casting a 5th level clerical spell godly?
Or Firkraag casting Spell Deflection for example? None of these are that powerful in my eyes...
But really. Lets think with our own heads. If you'd be a Firkraag class Dragon, with great powers at your disposal, an army of slaves, etc., and would know that a mage can kill you in one sec by casting a Finger of Death spell (and I'm sure he knows this kind of magic well), I'm positive you'd at least make a few attampts to defend yourself against it. In D&D lore, Dragons are described as overly cautious creatures. Allowing them to build up a few defenses is nothing more than plain caution.

Still, if you think I'm wrong, feel free to tell and discuss this!

Edited by T.G.Maestro, 06 September 2004 - 08:01 AM.

[Feanor]

The problem is if he can cast those spells (without cheating). I know too that a bullet can kill me, but I can't buy a kevlar jacket.

[Rathwellin the Bard]

Ah, but those slaves and such *are* part of his defenses. Part of what he is counting on is the party wearing itself out, depleting potions and magics and whatnot.

The real counter to cheese would be to make it harder to sleep in his little maze of a lair.

I don't think that Firkraag should have Death Ward, for instance, though it would surely fit your 'planning' mode since he would likely know about the existance of such a spell.

Most good mystic defenses don't last very long and I would hate to see Firkraag turn into yet another 'mage' battle as he casts one short duration defense after another. That's boring and out of character.

Instead I would expect the mighty Firkraag let his minions wear down the party, not let them sleep, and then, if it comes to actual battle with them he should take advantage of what he can do. Breath Fire on the mages, Wing Buff the fighters away, and then use physical attacks on the mages to take them out first. He should use a dispel magic if his attacks don't seem to be working, but he shouldn't have more than two or three of these. Next concentrate on the clerics. Finally nail the fighters and rogues. Stoneskins and a *few* other magic spells might be cast a time or three but intelligent use of breath and wings would do far more to keep him safe while chewing up the mage types.

To me *that* would be the kind of counter a dragon would use vs. Finger of Death. Not counterspells. Not uber defensive items. Just intelligent use of his own abilities.

What you posted in your response to Feanor above seemed to stongly imply to me that some sort of meta-game cheese was going to be in play. Precast spells, native resistance, or something of that sort. To me that would be *so* wrong for this battle. Among other things Dragons are arrogant. Firkraag doesn't *really* expect to battle the PC ... and is confident that he can win if it does come to that.

[Feanor]

Among other things Dragons are arrogant. Firkraag doesn't *really* expect to battle the PC ... and is confident that he can win if it does come to that.

Exactly my words, Rath. The red dragons despise their foes and that is obvious both to Firk and Saladrex. It's like I would take Pride of the Legion when I go to kill a mouse. Firk and Saladrex won't expect for sure to encounter such a tough opponent in Charname.

[T.G.Maestro]

Wsie words, from both of you. But don't get me wrong: I don't want to add them dozens of defensive/offensive spells or anything like that. To be honest, I was thinking on a similar solution you described Rathwellin. The harder resting in the dungeon is a damn good idea though!
On the other hand, some of the Dragons will have a few allies to help them out in the final battles. Firkraag won't have any (for the reasons you posted above), nor Nizi (he comes alone, but he will charm any lizards or reptiles the party may summon), but Adalon will have her Imp messenger and 2 Guardian Golems (modified Iron Golems) helping her in battle, and Thax will be aided by several Shade monsters.

[Feanor]

and Thax will be aided by several Shade monsters.

What kind of shade monsters, TG ? Will you post their description in the main post ?

[T.G.Maestro]

Nothing new. They will constantly spawn from the corners of the room (1/round as long as Thax lives) and will move into the center to attack the party. I'm talking about Shadows, Shadow Fiends and a few Wraiths too.

[Feanor]

Nothing new. They will constantly spawn from the corners of the room (1/round as long as Thax lives) and will move into the center to attack the party. I'm talking about Shadows, Shadow Fiends and a few Wraiths too.

Oh, the usual ones, get it. And how many ?

[T.G.Maestro]

As I wrote, 1 creature/round, until the Dragon dies. Another option is to make it 1/2 rounds (in case weaker systems won't be able to run this battle properly with all these creatures around), in this case the chance for harder shades will be a bit higher.

[Feanor]

BTW, TG, I want to let you know that dragons are immune to normal missiles (the second edition manual says so). I'm not very sure if they are immune to normal missiles in BG2, but I think they aren't.

[hlidskialf]

I always liked the old PnP method of beefing dragons by letting them use some of their hoard magic. Rings, wands, scrolls. Maybe the odd figurine, that kinda thing. It doesn't tend to unbalance things really, and is quite easy to still tailor the item types to the dragon's personality. (Imagine a red dragon with a ring of frost resistance 'eh?) Smart AI and use of magic items are far better IMO than arbitrary resistances or spell ability the beasties aren't supposed to have. B)

[the bigg]

I always liked the old PnP method of beefing dragons by letting them use some of their hoard magic. Rings, wands, scrolls. Maybe the odd figurine, that kinda thing. It doesn't tend to unbalance things really, and is quite easy to still tailor the item types to the dragon's personality. (Imagine a red dragon with a ring of frost resistance 'eh?) Smart AI and use of magic items are far better IMO than arbitrary resistances or spell ability the beasties aren't supposed to have. B)

Yep, I almost agree... but I wonder what use would Frirkaag have of the Carsomyr or of the Shield Cloack. Not to mention Thax and the scroll of Crom Fayr...
And this would be gathered into "more final reward"...
Though, of course, a nice wand of fireball (or Heavens, as wand of Fireball isn't truly scriptable, unless we use the wrong workaround used in a certain set of scrippts ) on Firkr suits just well, and isn't unbalancing at all reward-like. It's simply up to re-build their treasures a bit. (Nizi couldget the wand of Cloudkill and use it over the Plant Growth, for example ); Thax could use sleep wands over leve-drained enemies, etc.