247 replies to this topic

[T.G.Maestro]

Here comes the first part of my ideas about creature revisions. I'm positive that this one would be more questionable for someone used to the classic 2nd E settings, but still, here are my thoughts.
I always hated the current BG2 (and 2nd E) implementation of these grand creatures: normally they should be one of Faerun's most feared races, yet in BG2 they aren't more than giant-sized meattowers - and the fact that they fall easily vs. a 15th level party freaks me out completely. No matter how good (or cheating) their scripts are, the fact that a simple ogre can have more HPs is enough to make them fall in the easy-prey categhory. And we still haven't mentioned HLA level parties... I'm sure you both experienced dragons to fall to ONE Greater Whirlwind attack from a high-level warrior (Sarevok for example)?... No comment.
Now, I intend to change this dramatically. To do this, we should follow the 3rd E implementation of these creatures, which are way more believeable -and deadly. 3rd E corrected many flaws in the old system, including the inconsistent HP values of larger creatures. In the following I'll try to detail the basis of my modifications on SoA (and ToB) dragons, one by one. Note: these changes will seem truly dramatic at first view, but please try to follow my reasoning, and imagine these creatures as they were originally intended to be. For more information and different points of view on this subject, please take a look at the discussion in the Baldur's Gate 1-2 Forum's "Dragons" thread too. Most of my proposed values and special abilities are a mix from the 2ndE and 3rdE Monstrous Manuals.

General changes:
- Aura of Fear: every round, 50' radius, save vs. spells or flee in terror for 3 rounds.
- Better and wider spell selection
- greatly reduced casting time since they activate spells by thoughts in one second.
- better scripts following the logic of ToB and weimeric Dragons.
- better saving throws.


The Black Dragon (Nizidramanii'yt)
Age: Ancient
Ability scores: 24 STR, 15 DEX, 20 CON, 17 INT, 14 WIS, 18 CHA.
HPs: 405
AC: -11
THAC0: -4
Nr. of attacks: 4
Damage: Claw: 3D6+4 slashing +STR modifier, Critical on 18-20, save vs. breath or fall uncounscious for 1 round. Bite (15%/hit): normal damage + extra 2D6 piercing.
Movement: +20%
Magical Resistances: 45% Magic, 25% Magic Damage, Immunity to Acid, 20% Fire/Cold/Electricity.
Physical Resistances: 30% to all forms of attack.
Breath Weapon: 20D4 +10 points of Acid (save vs. breath for half) + 3D4 points of Acid/round for 3 rounds, -4 AC for 3 rounds (corrosion).
Special abilities: Planth Growth 1/day (harder saves), Insect Plague 1/day, Tail Slap every 5th round.

Note: since Nizidramanii'yt is a "must" for every party (you must fight him), there should be a reasonable chance to avoid the conflict with him. In the unmodded game the only way to get the Cup without fighting him was to lose all your magical equipment.
Since Black Dragons are extremely fond of coins (even more than other Dragons), there should be an option to pay him for the cup. Another dialogue option should be added, wher he would demand no less than 50.000-75.000 Gold from the party.


The Shadow Dragon (Thaxll'ssillyia)
Age: Very old.
Ability scores: 23 STR, 17 DEX, 19 CON, 18 INT, 17 WIS, 18 CHA.
HPs: 310
AC: -13
THAC0: -3
Nr. of attacks: 3
Damage: Claw: 3D6 slashing +STR modifier, Critical on 19-20, save vs. breath or fall uncounscious for 1 round. Bite (15%/hit): normal damage + extra 2D6 piercing.
Movement: +15%
Magical Resistances: 65% Magic, 30% Magic Damage, 50% Acid.
Physical Resistances: 25% to all forms of attack.
Breath Weapon: Drain 6 Levels + 5 Levels (save vs. breath), Blindness for 1 round (no save).
Special Abilities: Mirror Image 3/day, Dimension Door at will, Non-Detection 3/day, Improved Invisibility, Darkness (mass Blindness for 5 rounds), Tail Slap/5 rounds.


The Red Dragon (Firkraag)
Age: Great Wyrm
Ability scores: 25 STR, 20 DEX, 23 CON, 20 INT, 18 WIS, 20 CHA.
HPs: 650
AC: -12
THAC0: -5
Nr. of attacks: 4
Damage: Claw: 4D6 +10 +STR modifier, Critical on 17-20, save vs. breath at -1 or fall uncouncious for 1 round and knocked back.
Movement: +30%
Magical Resistances: 65% Magic, 40% Magic Damage, Immunity to Fire, 20% Acid/Electricity.
Physical Resistances: 35% to all forms of attack.
Breath Weapon: 24D10 +12 Fire (save vs. breath for half), uncounsciousness for 1 round (save vs. spells at -2), knockback (save vs. spells at -4).
Special Abilities: Lower Fire Resistance 1/day, Dire Charm 1/day, Domination 1/day, Tail Slap every 5th round.


The Silver Dragon (Adalon)
Age: Wyrm
Ability scores: 24 STR, 21 DEX, 21 CON, 20 INT, 18 WIS, 19 CHA.
HPs: 560
AC: -11
THAC0: -2
Nr. of attacks: 3
Damage: Claw: 2D10+ 6 +STR modifier, Critical on 18-20, save vs. breath or fall uncounscious for 1 round. Bite: (15%/hit): normal damage + extra 1D10 piercing.
Movement: +25%
Magical Resistances: 55% Magic, 30% Magic Damage, Immunity to Cold.
Physical Resistances: 30% to all forms of attack.
Breath Weapons: 1.: 22D8 +11 Cold (save vs. breath for half), slow for 1 round.
2.: Paralyzation for 5 rounds (save vs. spells at -2), 30' radius.
Special Abilities: Feather Fall (deflect missiles) 2/day, Change Gravity (undipellable mass slow for 3 rounds, mass uncounsciousness for 3 rounds -save vs. spells), Clerical Spells, Tail Slap every 5th round.



The Green Dragon (Fll'Yssetat)
Age: Ancient
Ability scores: 24 STR, 17 DEX, 20 CON, 16 INT, 17 WIS, 18 CHA
HPs: 400
AC: -11
THAC0: -4
Nr. of attacks: 4
Damage: 4D6 slashing +2 +STR modifier, Critical Hit on 18-20, uncounsciousness for 1 round, knockback (save vs. breath).
Movement: +20%
Magical Resistances: 50% Magic, 25% Magic Damage, Immunity to Poison/Acid
Physical Resistances: 25% to all forms of attack.
Breath Weapon: 20D6 +10 Poison (save vs. breath for half), -3 CON for 5 rounds (no save), 2 poison damage/sec for 3 rounds (save vs. poison at -4).
Special abilities: Dire Charm 3/day, Lower Poison Resistance 1/day, Planth Growth 1/day, Domination 1/day, Tail Slap every 5th round, Immune to mid-affecting spells (under the effects of a Geas).


Saladrex (Red Dragon in WK)
Age: Wyrm
Ability scores: 24 STR, 19 DEX, 21 CON, 13 INT, 18 WIS, 18 CHA
HPs: 565
AC: -12
THAC0: -4
Nr. of attacks: 3
Damage: 4D6 +5 +STR modifier, Critical Hit on 18-20, Uncounsciousness and knockback (save vs breath)
Movement: +20%
Magical Resistances: 60% Magic, 30% Magic Damage, Immune to Fire, 15% Acid/Electricity
Physical Resistances: 30% to all forms of attack
Breath Weapon: 22D10 +10 Fire (save vs. breath for half), knockback (save vs. spell at -4), uncounsciousness for 1 round (save vs. spell at -2)
Special Abilities: Lower Fire Resistance 1/day, Dire Charm 3/day, Domination 1/day, Tail Slap every 5th round


Opinions?

Edited by T.G.Maestro, 10 June 2004 - 10:55 AM.

[Feanor]

After you will read this, TG, maybe you will be slightly tempted to kick me. But remember that a kick in the backside could be also a step forward...
1. I know I supported you at that topic. But those HP you want to give them are not a little bit too much ??? Remember that the Ascension Abazigal has only 500 HP. I doubt Firkraag could be more powerful than him. Second, if he has 650 HP, he could be too powerful for a SOA party. Why don't you lower them a bit : from 650 to 450, from 560 to 390, 405 to 350, 310 to 280 (those are just examples).

2. Why dragons have such a high CHA ?

3. That movement improvement. What does it mean ? Dragons will be faster ? I have some doubts about it...
4. Firkraag should have more physical resistances (50% will be more appropriate in my opinion)
5. Why Nizzy has a better AC than Firkraag ? The red wyrm is supposed to be the "king" of the dragons in SOA...

greatly reduced casting time since they activate spells by thoughts in one second.

I have some objections about it. I always disliked the idea of dragons having spells. Dragons are killing machines, but in melee fighting, they are not spellcasters.
For instance : why the Red Dragon should have domination ? Only wizards and creatures with psionic powers can use this spell.
Shadow Dragon has improved invisibility. Again, I don't think it's logical. Such a large creature couldn't become invisible even by magical means. He would be noticed immediately.

6. That is a suggestion : I think Dragons should be immune to poison or at least have a huge saving throw against poison.

Edited by Feanor, 07 June 2004 - 06:17 AM.

[Schatten]

-aura is modified by -4 if i read right here and so should it be implemented. (okay, tough ones are immune but thats not implementable, i think). better would be to make the fear according to age and not general.
-jep, you should select them according to their "nature" (red gets fire spells) for fun.
-yep.
-like they have in pnp. like a lvl18 fighter.

is it really necessary to give every dragon phys res? they already have enough hp and if you count in perhaps one or two summons its enough.

black
50k? thats a joke. at least 100k. no less.
can you implement the potion becomes useless ability?


shadow
sorry, 11lvldrain is too high. this never enters my game. besides it should be temp and not permanent.

red
breathweapon: isnt the damage enough?

silver
feather stopps all missiles, not reflects them back. and all dragons are immune to normal missiles.


i like the changes.

[Schatten]

"1. I know I supported you at that topic. But those HP you want to give them are not a little bit too much ??? Remember that the Ascension Abazigal has only 500 HP. I doubt Firkraag could be more powerful than him. Second, if he has 650 HP, he could be too powerful for a SOA party. Why don't you lower them a bit : from 650 to 450, from 560 to 390, 405 to 350, 310 to 280 (those are just examples"

jep, hp could be a bit high. 650 and 560 is a bit much. but i hope tgm has tested it a bit.



"4. Firkraag should have more physical resistances (50% will be more appropriate in my opinion)"

hp is too much but dr is okay? that dont make sense.


"I have some objections about it. I always disliked the idea of dragons having spells. Dragons are killing machines, but in melee fighting, they are spellcasters."

dragons get spells and cast them with a speed of 1. so its okay.

[T.G.Maestro]

"1. I know I supported you at that topic. But those HP you want to give them are not a little bit too much ??? Remember that the Ascension Abazigal has only 500 HP. I doubt Firkraag could be more powerful than him. Second, if he has 650 HP, he could be too powerful for a SOA party. Why don't you lower them a bit : from 650 to 450, from 560 to 390, 405 to 350, 310 to 280 (those are just examples"

jep, hp could be a bit high. 650 and 560 is a bit much. but i hope tgm has tested it a bit.

Yes, those are truly high stats, I know. As I said in my first post, these change would greatly change Dragons in SoA and even in ToB. Note that the noteable HP increase comes from 2 separate things: Age cathegory and Subrace. Firkraag is a Great Wyrm level Red Dragon, and these two parameters get the highest scores. A Shadow Dragon would have less HPs at the same age cathegory.
About Abazigal: I doubt he would be more than Adult whan it comes to Age cathegories. This way that 500 HPs are waaay higher than the normal values. He should have around 300. Again, this depends on Age and Subrace.
Still, if these HPs prove unbeatable, we can tone them down by 20% or so.

2. Why dragons have such a high CHA ?

Um. Imagine a colossal ancient beast towering before you. I doubt you wouldn't find it charismatic...

4. Firkraag should have more physical resistances (50% will be more appropriate in my opinion)

Nothing indicates such a high resistance to physical attacks. I'd try to stick to (semi)official bonuses.

3. That movement improvement. What does it mean ? Dragons will be faster ? I have some doubts about it...

Again, this comes from their size. 1 step from an Red Dragon takes it further than the same step from a White Dragon.

5. Why Nizzy has a better AC than Firkraag ? The red wyrm is supposed to be the "king" of the dragons in SOA...

Ehm... he has a lower Ac than the Black Dragon.

"I have some objections about it. I always disliked the idea of dragons having spells. Dragons are killing machines, but in melee fighting, they are spellcasters."

dragons get spells and cast them with a speed of 1. so its okay

Exactly.

can you implement the potion becomes useless ability?

Heh, that would be a nice one, but I fear it is not that easy.

shadow
sorry, 11lvldrain is too high. this never enters my game. besides it should be temp and not permanent

It is not permanent. And it only drains 6 levels without save, the additional 5 requires a save vs. breath at 0.

red
breathweapon: isnt the damage enough?

No. Take a look at the mage spell Dragon's Breath.

silver
feather stopps all missiles, not reflects them back. and all dragons are immune to normal missiles

Uhm, sorry, I inteded to deflect those missiles, not reflect them . But who uses normal missiles against Dragons anyway?

6. That is a suggestion : I think Dragons should be immune to poison or at least have a huge saving throw against poison.

Yes, a good suggestion.

[Feanor]

[QUOTE]QUOTE
5. Why Nizzy has a better AC than Firkraag ? The red wyrm is supposed to be the "king" of the dragons in SOA... [QUOTE]


Ehm... he has a lower Ac than the Black Dragon. [/QUOTE]

No, Thax has a -13 AC, while Firkraag has only -12.

[T.G.Maestro]

Feanor, you are confusing the Black (Nizi) and the Shadow Dragon (Thax).
The Black has a higher AC than Firkraag, while the Shadow Dragon has better. It comes from its nature - Shadow Dragons can manouver faster and are able to avoid blows that Red Dragons cannot.

Edited by T.G.Maestro, 07 June 2004 - 06:44 AM.

[Schatten]

"Still, if these HPs prove unbeatable, we can tone them down by 20% or so."

the other dragons seems beatable. only the 560 and 650 are over the top for me.



"Um. Imagine a colossal ancient beast towering before you. I doubt you wouldn't find it charismatic... "





"Nothing indicates such a high resistance to physical attacks. I'd try to stick to (semi)official bonuses."

again i say, physical resistance is like extra hp. so dont go and raise everything. the shadow has aprox 25% more life. think about it.



"Heh, that would be a nice one, but I fear it is not that easy."

a)one spell for healing potion
b)one spell for super healing potion
c)one spell for extra ordinary super healing potion
script to check if extra super ordinary healing potion is in inventory.
if yes cast spell. this spell has a success rate of x%.
if not check for super healing potion
if super healing potion is in inv
....
should work (or not )


"It is not permanent. And it only drains 6 levels without save, the additional 5 requires a save vs. breath at 0."

thought it would be perm. even 6 is high. after three casts you are dead.



"Uhm, sorry, I inteded to deflect those missiles, not reflect them . But who uses normal missiles against Dragons anyway?"

me. i am too greedy to afford those super expensive +1 arrows (no joke! ).

[T.G.Maestro]

the other dragons seems beatable. only the 560 and 650 are over the top for me

Understandable, but I'd once again call your attention to their differencies in Age cathegories. I know, those levels are my imagination only, but it'd help show the difference in difficulty between those dragons. An Adult Red Dragon would have around 300, an Ancient around 400, a Wyrm level around 520 and a Great Wyrm above 650.
And the same goes for damage resistances - those stats will increase with age cathegories too!

again i say, physical resistance is like extra hp. so dont go and raise everything. the shadow has aprox 25% more life. think about it.

I was simply following the Manuals here - both HPs and physical resistances increase with age cathegories for dragons.

a)one spell for healing potion
b)one spell for super healing potion
c)one spell for extra ordinary super healing potion
script to check if extra super ordinary healing potion is in inventory.
if yes cast spell. this spell has a success rate of x%.
if not check for super healing potion
if super healing potion is in inv

Maybe we will include it.

The flaw is to correct the BG2 system by reducing the amount of XP you get for killing monsters & doing quests rather and reducing the amount of uber-magical crap out there than making all monsters uber strong.

Not entirely Galactygon. No matter how much we try to follow pnp, we must accept the fact that BG2 IS NOT PNP. Things work differently in this game. While I'd prefer the idea to lower XPs and such (as you intend to do in LC), it would result in complete disaster in the long run - many (essential) mods like Ascension require a high-level character with powerful abilities. If you make every party weaker (in level and equipment), encounters like the Ascension Five would become impossible. Could you provide a good tactic vs. Improved Abazigal for a 16th-18th level party? Or what would you suggest, uninstalling these mods? Um, sorry, but no.
You see, BG2's system is set, just as the system of pnp. And they are not the same. Trying to mix them too much can result in bad things.

[BobTokyo]

Shadow Dragon: An invisible, nondetectible, level draining opponent who blinds you with no save? Well, it's an avoidable fight, but still . . .
I'd make the blind saveable or of short duration, else you'll lose in the first round when all your melee fighters become useless.

I guess my primary reaction to all this is that you've made the Dragons into TOB level encounters; they'll work well against players who get up to TOB levels and/or are completely tricked out, and they'll no longer work as SOA enemies when non-power players are involved. I'd include comments on that in the readme, so that players know what they're getting into.

Boosting Dragons to 3.5 levels without boosting players to 3.5 levels doesn't make sense frrom a rules POV, but is fine for a mod that is really just trying to make Dragons into tougher foes.

You've made the Fear aura far more powerful than it is in 3.5 (one save makes you immune for 24 hours: http://www.systemref...html#red-dragon ), but then most people facing these thing will have cast some kind of courage spell anyway.

[T.G.Maestro]

Shadow Dragon: An invisible, nondetectible, level draining opponent who blinds you with no save? Well, it's an avoidable fight, but still

Hooo, read that description once again please. The Breath weapon blinds for 1 round only, as it was in the original SoA game (and pnp). Its AoE is rather small, it is very unlikely that it would affect more than 1-2 creatures.
About the invisibility: for logical reasons it will be replaced by Blur (even while invisible, it would be rather easy to locate such a gigantic creature...).
And yes, it is avoidable. A factor that will get a greater role once this component is installed. Players should learn that not everything is beatable. At least not at low/mid levels.

I guess my primary reaction to all this is that you've made the Dragons into TOB level encounters; they'll work well against players who get up to TOB levels and/or are completely tricked out, and they'll no longer work as SOA enemies when non-power players are involved. I'd include comments on that in the readme, so that players know what they're getting into.

Good point, we will inculde this note of course.

You've made the Fear aura far more powerful than it is in 3.5

From one PoV, yes, since it applies every round. But it will have no penalties on the saves (only Firkraag will have -2). I find it rather unbelieveable that if you don't get scared looking at a Red Dragon at first sight you'll NEVER get panicked during the combat.

Edited by T.G.Maestro, 07 June 2004 - 08:02 AM.

[Schatten]

"Understandable, but I'd once again call your attention to their differencies in Age cathegories. I know, those levels are my imagination only, but it'd help show the difference in difficulty between those dragons. An Adult Red Dragon would have around 300, an Ancient around 400, a Wyrm level around 520 and a Great Wyrm above 650.
And the same goes for damage resistances - those stats will increase with age cathegories too!"

umm.... those hps are based on your bg2 experience not on pnp dragons. iirc, a hd is a 8-sided dice if not stated otherwise and old daddy dragons have like 20 hit dices. this is not 600hp.
nah, doesnt matter. the main thing is dragons pose a threat to low lvl crap heroes aka heroes >lvl16.




"Not entirely Galactygon. No matter how much we try to follow pnp, we must accept the fact that BG2 IS NOT PNP. Things work differently in this game. While I'd prefer the idea to lower XPs and such (as you intend to do in LC), it would result in complete disaster in the long run - many (essential) mods like Ascension require a high-level character with powerful abilities. If you make every party weaker (in level and equipment), encounters like the Ascension Five would become impossible. Could you provide a good tactic vs. Improved Abazigal for a 16th-18th level party? Or what would you suggest, uninstalling these mods? Um, sorry, but no.
You see, BG2's system is set, just as the system of pnp. And they are not the same. Trying to mix them too much can result in bad things."

the problem is with balancing the mods that place new monsters in the game. this results in extra exp/items and thus you get more powerfull. resulting in creating more powerfull monsters that give too much exp. or if you place new quests in game you get more exp making anything after that more easy. creating quests that give nothing would be boring (for me at least).
what to do? lower the exp overrall. imagine someone installs every mod that gives extra exp. he then playes the game and modifys it so you are at the lvl cap from soa at the end of soa. so it is balanced again.

[T.G.Maestro]

umm.... those hps are based on your bg2 experience not on pnp dragons. iirc, a hd is a 8-sided dice if not stated otherwise and old daddy dragons have like 20 hit dices. this is not 600hp

Take a look at their HP improvement in this 3rdE manual:
Monstrous Manual

what to do? lower the exp overrall. imagine someone installs every mod that gives extra exp. he then playes the game and modifys it so you are at the lvl cap from soa at the end of soa. so it is balanced again

This would be a good idea Schatten, but just as I said in my previous post, some mods require a very high level party (or an insanely powerful solo character) and Ascension is a good example here. Have you ever imagined the Ascension final with an 18th-20th level party?

Edited by T.G.Maestro, 07 June 2004 - 08:10 AM.

[T.G.Maestro]

as kish (was it kish?) said he mods with an unmodded game. so he makes the mods for clean, unmodded chararcters.

His Tougher Sendai proves the contrary, but hey..!
Now whoosh, back to topic. Dragons.

[Feanor]

"Still, if these HPs prove unbeatable, we can tone them down by 20% or so."

the other dragons seems beatable. only the 560 and 650 are over the top for me.

I don't think they are unbeatable at all. I was able to kill improved Abazigal (and he had a lot of assistants, even an adult dragon) and he had 500 HP. I was doubting just because they had more than Abazigal. But seeing how TG calculated the HP, I think he is right.

[Feanor]

I guess my primary reaction to all this is that you've made the Dragons into TOB level encounters; they'll work well against players who get up to TOB levels and/or are completely tricked out, and they'll no longer work as SOA enemies when non-power players are involved. I'd include comments on that in the readme, so that players know what they're getting into.

I don't agree. After level 20, you won't receive too much bonuses : the THAC0 is capped at 0, the saving throws are capped also. I mean : they are beatable (don't forget they don't have any assistance).

[T.G.Maestro]

don't forget they don't have any assistance

*khm*

[BobTokyo]

I guess my primary reaction to all this is that you've made the Dragons into TOB level encounters; they'll work well against players who get up to TOB levels and/or are completely tricked out, and they'll no longer work as SOA enemies when non-power players are involved. I'd include comments on that in the readme, so that players know what they're getting into.

I don't agree. After level 20, you won't receive too much bonuses : the THAC0 is capped at 0, the saving throws are capped also. I mean : they are beatable (don't forget they don't have any assistance).

Feanor, I think you misread my comment. What exactly are you disagreeing with?

EDIT: If you mean that you don't feel player character get more powerful after hitting TOB levels then I disagree.

1) The "completely tricked out" part of the comment is slang, in this case meaning "equipped with custom and/or TOB level items" such as those found in Item Upgrade and many other mods.

2) Level 9 Mage spells (except in scroll form), quest spells and HLAs are only available to parties that have hit TOB levels; they make a huge difference in character power.

If a player can beat this version of Firkraag with a party that lacks TOB level items, spells and HLAs then I'm darn impressed by his SOA skills.

Edited by BobTokyo, 07 June 2004 - 11:26 AM.