61 replies to this topic

[Dalis'ilhea]

@domi
I'm not sure wether or not to find your comment on being scizo a compliment or an insult, I probably could be considered but then again I'm considered clinicly insane by most who know me in real life while at the same time being considered as sane as you can possibly get and as cynical as hell is cold (which if I am scizo seems to be the only trait that is true)


I can see your point domi, and in part agree with you, but they would have to alter the chars in the game tremendously and there would be no romance, I don't care what your tastes on sexuality are, I'm simply trying to look at it from the company's point of view on who's the wider market (I am hating the sound of this sentence), and I think that having a floating, insulting and very horny skull coming on to you would freak me out (though it would be funny after all the WHAT THE F**KS had played out) but while it may be possible to do (maybe) but many of the plots in the game are in fact set on a male lead (deniohea or whatever her name is) and those plots and twists become very important in the game this game isn't like Knights of the old republic which does react to your chars sex but that game is in many very limited compared to Torment


I doubt that this will affect your ideas and ideals in any way but you are who you are and you believe what you believe which is more then I can say for myself at this moment as all this typing is making my pickled brain hurt

and an explantion for the first paragraph. It is meant (I think) to make you think what the hell and then laugh at the stupidity of it *shrugs* I never said it wasn't true

[BobTokyo]

A story that has a choice between a female or male lead would not have as much depth as a story that has only one lead. There would be way too many restrictions.

Nonsense.

All that would have been required is a change of pronouns, male versions of some of the female characters and a few dialog tweaks. Yes, it would have been more work; it also would have made a good game better.

[Longinus]

The latest statistic actually shows that majority of on-line role-payers are females...

Online RPGs are one thing, gaming in general is another. Although female gamers are on the rise, males easily constitute the majority of gamers. Female characters in games are primarily used to bait in a male audience. Do you really think that Final Fantasy X-2 would've sold so well if the three lead characters were precariously dressed men?

The main character in most Japanese RPGs is almost always male because the majority of gamers can and want to empathize with that character. Why not complain about Japanese RPGs in general too instead of just focusing on Torment? These games compensate with well-developed female side-kicks. Should I feel annoyed because the lead character in Beyond Good and Evil is a woman? It's still a great game with a great lead character regardless of that character's gender, and to an extent, because of it.

Besides, gamers don't want great RPGs like Torment. They want hack and slash-fest Diablo clones and movie-like RPGs in the vein of Final Fantasy where the story of the game is told to you. I don't know about you, but I like RPGs in which the player can interact with their surroundings and steer the course of the story. Most RPGs now are slowly but surely heading in this direction.

Edited by Longinus, 08 June 2004 - 09:40 AM.

[Dalis'ilhea]

That is a definate agreement

[Vlasák]

A story that has a choice between a female or male lead would not have as much depth as a story that has only one lead. There would be way too many restrictions.

Nonsense.

All that would have been required is a change of pronouns, male versions of some of the female characters and a few dialog tweaks. Yes, it would have been more work; it also would have made a good game better.

It is not as simple as you've said, imho... It has been said here x-times - the whole story is based on the male character. Not just the story of your incarnation but stories of all incarnations. Next to your incarnation, three previous incarnations have their own imprortant role in the game - and this is surrounded by MANY links and relations.

BTW I doubt that female character would be appropriate for Torment story - woman would act totally different and her modified counterparts (Deionarra as man, Ravel as man) as well. You can't just switch the gender of important characters - because some acts can be done in the way that have been done only by certain gender, otherwise the acting of such 'switched' characters would look quite weird.

Torment isn't normal game so normal requirements for its features aren't approprite for it.

[Feanor]

A story that has a choice between a female or male lead would not have as much depth as a story that has only one lead. There would be way too many restrictions.

Planescape is famous for the depth of its story.

If you don't like depth, I understand that. But remember that Planescape sacrificed "freedom" for a more meaningful story.

Oh, common! Here is a typical attitude I so much dislike - calling a person who *dares* to dislike Torment shallow.

I do not see how being a female robbs the game of some inner depth. And about depth... Morty's dialogues and a flying white ghost... I am sorry, but that's floatsome.

It seems like our dearest guest started a conflict with the feminist groups...

[BobTokyo]

It has been said here x-times - the whole story is based on the male character. Not just the story of your incarnation but stories of all incarnations. Next to your incarnation, three previous incarnations have their own imprortant role in the game - and this is surrounded by MANY links and relations.

You do know that people who actually bellieve in reincarnation think that you may switch genders from one life to another, right? If there is a life that the Nameless one lived and that wouldn't have made sense if lived as a female, why couldn't that just have been one of the male incarnations? An endlessly regenerating and reincarnating character is easier for you to beleive in than an endlessly reincarnating character that is not always male?

BTW I doubt that female character would be appropriate for Torment story -  woman would act totally different and her modified counterparts (Deionarra as man, Ravel as man) as well. You can't just switch the gender of important characters - because some acts can be done in the way that have been done only by certain gender, otherwise the acting of such 'switched' characters would look quite weird.

Then re-write the bits that "look weird", and keep in mind that real women do in fact lie, cheat, steal, struggle for power, torture, murder, plot, lust, protect, and build. This may mean that not everything you think would "look weird" is impossible for a female character to manage.

[Xaositect_Crayon]

ok... you made your point you enjoy customization

but the way you sound you are trying to make it look like it's not a good game because of it... thats what many are arguing...

[SimDing0]

You do know that people who actually bellieve in reincarnation think that you may switch genders from one life to another, right? If there is a life that the Nameless one lived and that wouldn't have made sense if lived as a female, why couldn't that just have been one of the male incarnations? An endlessly regenerating and reincarnating character is easier for you to beleive in than an endlessly reincarnating character that is not always male?

Um. What? The Nameless One does not change when he dies. As much as he forgets and his approaches vary, he's far from a different person. In the same way as he doesn't randomly come back as a dwarf, he shouldn't suddenly turn female.

[BobTokyo]

You do know that people who actually bellieve in reincarnation think that you may switch genders from one life to another, right? If there is a life that the Nameless one lived and that wouldn't have made sense if lived as a female, why couldn't that just have been one of the male incarnations? An endlessly regenerating and reincarnating character is easier for you to beleive in than an endlessly reincarnating character that is not always male?

Um. What? The Nameless One does not change when he dies. As much as he forgets and his approaches vary, he's far from a different person. In the same way as he doesn't randomly come back as a dwarf, he shouldn't suddenly turn female.

Now that would be fun; the Nameless One comes back as a female dwarf . . .

[Cirocco]

It never really bothered me when playing PST that the main character was male.. It would have in BG if there where only male options, but PST wasn't a create your own PC game .. unlike BG.. I always looked on it as a game that explored the story of the nameless one and the rest of the party, not realy a game where you became the main char, In BG your PC is your avatar in the game and in Torment your exploring the story behind the main character .. They're two very different styles of going through a game.. the exploration of the story is the main point of the game and just because it was the story of a man it didn't put me off the game at all.

Sure with a lotttt more work and a lot of rewriting they could have finagled it so that it was optionaly the story of a female nameless one and all the npc's where gender reversals's fo the current npc's and all the plotlines involving relationships where gender mirrors of the male nameless one's relationship's + spend another load of money hiring voice actors to do the gender reversed roles. I've read books where the internal voice of the narrator is from a male perspective and (at least if they're well written) I don't have any problems empathising with them .. I don't expect the author to have written an alternative version with a female internal voice.

I remember how good it felt when I played Ultima & for the first time and had the option of selecting a female avatar (and even a black female avatar if I'd wanted).. though quickly realised that it din't make an in game difference at all (maybe two places in the game (apart from them calling you My Lady instead my lord) where it was even acknowledged and (for the most part) thats what all CRPG PC characters are.. your Avatar in the game.. the half hearted/unfinished female PC romance in BG isn't even worth talking about, without an unmodded game you'll hardly ever be acknoledged as female outside a few banters.

I had a few in game doubts as I started playing Torment, Mort Grated a little bit at first, then first impressions with both Annah and Grace where.. ah.. typical steretoypes.. But soon came to realise that theres nothing typical/stereotypical/ about either of them .. Both of these characters personalitys and their back storys make them probably the two best female characters in any CRPG I've seen.. and was one of the things that truly surpised and delighted me about this game.. I haven't played Torment for a long time, because while it does have some replayability factor I think I ended up playing through till I'd seen every dialogue option there was to see and sadly it hasn't been taken up by the modding community (I believe it's engine makes it quite hard to work with).. But I still remember it as probably the most involving CRPG I've ever played.. It has something that everything else lacked, a real depth to it. and I didn't miss the fact that it didn't have a female avatar because it wasn't an "Avatar" game.

Having said that I'd have been slightly happier with a female nameless one, Gender reversal alternative NPC's and the option to play in 1024 + resolutions/3D glasses/Some minor bug fixes before release and Brad Pitt to massage my back while I played, but that would only happen in a world where the makers had a lot more money/time/better techonology at their disposal .. oh and where I was an international film starlet/heiress .. and then only slightly happier (well obviously a lot happier with the Brad Pitt massage part ) .. since it's the story that makes this particular game what it is and the story wouldn't change.

I'd love a sequel with a female protaganist, if the writing was up to the standard of Torment I'd settle for a neutar Triffid but with the current state of the companys involved I don't think theres ever going to be any sequel at all ever.

Only hope Torment fans have is a finished conversation to another IE engine hopefully one day sparking modding interest in it (Keeps fingers crossed)

Edited by Cirocco, 08 June 2004 - 05:15 PM.

[Xaositect_Crayon]

playing as Annah or grace as the lead would work..... maybe you should be able to choose who you play as. Since Annah and Grace would never work together (I could see her saying "Pike off bitch!" while everyone was back in sigil after the game ends) they never pair up.

Also they should have SOMEONE from the transcendent order to help you out. Those ciphers.. they are so cool...
and FACTOL KARAN should be in it too... he should be there just to hit on Grace....