202 replies to this topic

[Feanor]

And about the curse on it: that comes from her link with her weapon. Parts of Illasera are now forger into the bow itself, they were almost one. This will be clarified in the description of the dropped weapon of course.

Agreed, but what concerned me is that people tend to dislike cursed items.

[Schatten]

"Before someone might get me wrong, I suggested that she should use one 1 bow, the more powerful one in my description. The other one (with the nerfed abilities) should be droppable and useable by the party."

yes, and i said i dont like that idea. i find it better to have two bows. one with a good chance to push enemies back because, we all know, long range units are weak in melee or at least should be. so she can push fighters back. and one bow to do heavy damage.
and not one and only one bow to do it all in a soso manner.

[T.G.Maestro]

and not one and only one bow to do it all in a soso manner

And why? Could you tell me your reasons for this? Why not unite the two effects (the high damage and the chance for knockback) in one weapon?

Agreed, but what concerned me is that people tend to dislike cursed items

And so they should. Before you ask, I don't want to add a mega item for players, especially not for free - Illasera's bow will be a unique item, but not something to be used without great care.

[Schatten]

its more strategical. because the chance for knocking back is higher and melee chars have a lesser chance to melee.
and more importantly i demand it as your boss. :nana:

[Feanor]

its more strategical. because the chance for knocking back is higher and melee chars have a lesser chance to melee.
and more importantly i demand it as your boss. :nana:

TG, it seems we have hear an attempt of taking over the leadership. Let's hang the rebel ! :turnip2: :nana:

[T.G.Maestro]

its more strategical. because the chance for knocking back is higher and melee chars have a lesser chance to melee

If we set the saves vs. the knockback effect to, say, -4 (originally my suggestion was -6!), the chance to knockback melee/ranged characters will be quite significant. I don't see why you'd need a separate bow to do this.
And to tell the truth, I think having 2 different bows on her and switching them in combat sounds rather silly. Of course, it is the way things go in BG2, but still...

and more importantly i demand it as your boss

Oh, thats different, I'll give a separate bow to every single effect then..!

TG, it seems we have hear an attempt of taking over the leadership. Let's hang the rebel !

I tell you a secret Feanor:
I already dispatched Schatten a while back, it is only me posting under his identity...

[Feanor]

An alignment change would not be appropriate for the curse effects of the bow ?

[T.G.Maestro]

An alignment change would not be appropriate for the curse effects of the bow ?

Alignment can be changed easily with Virtue installed, and I don't see it as necessary. As I said before, I'll try to explain the negative effects in the weapon's description.

Anyway, here are the current effects of the 2 bows, there are some changes:

1.: Illasera's Black Bow (used by her):
Weapon type: Long Bow
Damage: +9, + 2D10 piercing (save vs. death at -6)
THAC0: +9
Enchantment level: +4 (it shouldn't hit through Absolute Immunity)
Attacks/round: 4
-5% MR for 30 seconds (no save);
automatic dispel on hit (no save);
Spell Failure of 33% for 3 rounds (no save);
slow on hit for 9 sec (save vs. poly at -4)
stun on hit for 6 sec (save vs. poly)
Wing Buffet for a reduced distance (save vs. death at -4)

2.: Illasera's Black Bow (useable by the party after her death) *CURSED*
Weapon type: long bow
Damage: +5, +1D12 piercing (save vs. death at -2)
THAC0: +5
Attacks/round bonus: +1
-5% MR for 30 seconds (20%), no save;
Dispel on hit (20%), no save;
Spell Failure of 33% for 2 rounds (20%), no save;
Reduces CON and CHA by 3
Reduces Luck by 2
Requires: 16 DEX

[Schatten]

And to tell the truth, I think having 2 different bows on her and switching them in combat sounds rather silly. Of course, it is the way things go in BG2, but still...

its the 4 arms technique. a bhaalpower. with it she can use two bows at the same time.

I tell you a secret Feanor:
I already dispatched Schatten a while back, it is only me posting under his identity...

..... i am.... just one of tgms many voices in his head?

[T.G.Maestro]

..... i am.... just one of tgms many voices in his head?

There you go - this fraction of my soul keeps complaining...

Now, back to topic.

[Rathwellin the Bard]

Rather than having the "Super nasty killer bow of doom" I would rather the big I have a moderately powerful bow, a selection of arrows, and a number of HLAs & specail Bhaal powers. In other words she should be more like a regular PC than a demigoddess.
More scripting yes, but I'm tired of big bosses that cheat. IMO they mostly cheat because it's easier to give them mack-daddy attacks and loads of HP rather than build a really good script. I was really hoping that Refinements would would go the hard but good route rather than the 'easy' way.

Now, we must separate two things here Rath. First, I agree, one must use better scripting instead of super-power files. I always praised the CoC encounter done by aVENGER, it was the best example how a hard battle should look like - without using any superpowers at all.
On the other hand, this battle (and all the Five battles) is different. Accept it or not, the whole plot of ToB is built upon uber characters and uber opponents. Don't forget that we aren't talking about normal archwers, monks, dragons here.. no, we are talking about the most uber-deadly archers, monks and dragons. These are no ordinary opponents, these are superhuman foes, all of them. They all have a noteable amount of powers at their disposal, so it's not just scripting. Either way, they are considered to be more powerful than most other characters of their level.
So, what I (we) promise in Refinements: all these super-foes with more believeable and nastier scripts and tactics. Overall things will be tougher, I believe.

Oh, and just like Balthazar is to monks, Illasera is one of the reasons I've largely avoided archers. It ticks me off that I could never make a PC that could compete with her even at munchy levels

Nono, this reasoning has its flaws, as I tried to point it out on many different topics before. Yes, Balthazar may be more powerful at start than PC monk at the same level - he has better HP, better regeneration, better statistics and better HLAs (not true once Refinements is installed, even more so with the upcoming new HLAs in v2). Still, he lacks many abilities the player has: for example the Slayer. And really, the PC is NOT the most poweful Bhaalspawn ever born on Faerun - he only becomes the greatest of them, and only AT THE END of the saga.
Also, the fact that some people claimed that Kiara can take care of I.Balthazar by herself, is rather warning to me...

Heh. TGM, I agree that ToB *needs* uber battles. ToB would be *boring* if the fights were all too easy. I even agree that the 5 need ?special? stuff that maybe a PC wouldn?t have access too ... at least at the time of the fight.

For instance as Illasera might drop some arrows that ?slay? summons. Vola! Now the problem of her being able to ?cheat? and do something the PC could never hope to do is gone. The PC Archer too can slay summoned creatures but only *after* he fights her and then fspellholdstudios.netspellholdstudios.netspellholdstudios.netor only until he runs out of Illasera?s special arrows.

I don?t mind unusual ?Bhaal? powers for the Five. I happen to really like Yaga-Shura?s immunity, for instance. For one it has a backstory and secondly it can be countered story wise in game. I also like Sendai?s ?duplication ritual? for similar reasons.

The ?problem? is that IMO some of these ?special powers? go too far. Illasera and Balthazar were the main two offenders to me. Balthazar?s uniqueness has been greatly helped by the new Refinements HLAs for monks as now he and the PC can both be powerful but have nifty differences in style and ability.

That, to me, just leaves Illasera walking all over Archers. I don?t mind the blowback. A fighter HLA for a Ranger? I?ll let that go. The Etherealness? Imoen gets that as a Bhaal power so it doesn?t really freak me out, but IMO she should have no more than 3 uses of this.

However I *must* ask why Illasera needs a +9!!!! Bow?! Why not just have her CRE file get the standard archer bonuses to THACO + DAMAGE and then tone the bow back to normal ToB level magic? A +6 bow would still be insanely good for instance.

As for the dropped bow ... my suggestion would be to make it more like the ascension Sword Of Chaos which is tuned specifically to Sarevok. In his hands it?s a fearsome weapon. In anyone else?s it?s not so good. Drop the curse and drop the bow bonus to +3 or so. Loose some of the bow specials and have her drop some really nifty arrows instead that do some of the things currently coded for her bow.

That?s the kind of ?Refinement? that would have me cheering.

:thumb: :nana:

[T.G.Maestro]

Sorry Rath, I'll have to ask: did you read ALL the previous posts here lately? Many of your suggestions were already discussed and decided..

For instance as Illasera might drop some arrows that ?slay? summons. Vola! Now the problem of her being able to ?cheat? and do something the PC could never hope to do is gone. The PC Archer too can slay summoned creatures but only *after* he fights her and then for only until he runs out of Illasera?s special arrows

As discussed beofre, this effect is completely removed from her bow, it was not acceptable in any means. No Bhaalpower could do that, at least not at her level.

Illasera and Balthazar were the main two offenders to me. Balthazar?s uniqueness has been greatly helped by the new Refinements HLAs for monks as now he and the PC can both be powerful but have nifty differences in style and ability

Indeed. But still, the fact remains, Balthazar IS a 30th level monk. I'm sure you know what 30 levels in D&D means.. And of course he IS special - mybe the most powerful monk who ever walked the lands of Faerun (only the PC, or The Black Raven could compete with him).

That, to me, just leaves Illasera walking all over Archers. I don?t mind the blowback. A fighter HLA for a Ranger? I?ll let that go. The Etherealness? Imoen gets that as a Bhaal power so it doesn?t really freak me out, but IMO she should have no more than 3 uses of this.

All in all, she does. But not because of her normal abilities - if you'd force her to use a melee weapon, she'd be a cakewalk against the PC.
But what fighter HLA are you referring to? As far as I know, in Refinements she will use Hardiness, Endurance and Precision, all of them are allowed for Rangers.
And about Etherealness: now this IS a true Bhaalpower. A shame there is no backstory behind it, I think it it fits her dark nature well. But I don't agree that its use should be THAT limited - look, she is at the 20th level after all (in Refinements), she could have about 5 uses of it per day.

However I *must* ask why Illasera needs a +9!!!! Bow?! Why not just have her CRE file get the standard archer bonuses to THACO + DAMAGE and then tone the bow back to normal ToB level magic? A +6 bow would still be insanely good for instance.

Now, a good question. I agree here, as a last touch, we might revise her THAC0 (as a 20th level archer): if it can be lowered in a legitimate way, I'll reduce her bow's THAC0 and damage bonus to +6.

As for the dropped bow ... my suggestion would be to make it more like the ascension Sword Of Chaos which is tuned specifically to Sarevok. In his hands it?s a fearsome weapon. In anyone else?s it?s not so good. Drop the curse and drop the bow bonus to +3 or so. Loose some of the bow specials

I'm sure you missed my posts about the droped bow and its concept.
It works just as you suggested: her bow has some deadly powers when held by her (part of her spirit is imbued in it - Refinements explanation), and will retain some of them after her death. Yet, it will be a toned down version, as I posted above, with her curse on it.

As a summary, note that Illasera's real power lies in her special bow. Her Bhaapowers (and maybe the help of a powerful spellcaster) allowed her to partially link herself with it (Refinements explanation, again), imbuin it with a fraction of her tainted soul and personality, increasing its powers dramatically. This has two effects on her, one good and one bad: while held by her, the bow (NOT the arrows!) is extremely powerful and makes her possibly the best archer on Faerun. The Black Bow is now a part of her, just like her arms and legs. The downside of this dark sacrifice was that if she is separated from the weapon, she suffers greatly. All of her statistics and abilities decrease, and if the weapon would be ever destroyed, she'd "die with it". Of course these drawbacks won't affect the battle with her (there is no way to take the bow from her, only after she was slain), but is will serve as a logical explanation to her unbelievable abilities with bows.
Of course this will be better detailed and documented in the weapon's description.

[Feanor]

BTW, TG, who is this Black Raven you have mentioned ?

[T.G.Maestro]

However I *must* ask why Illasera needs a +9!!!! Bow?! Why not just have her CRE file get the standard archer bonuses to THACO + DAMAGE and then tone the bow back to normal ToB level magic? A +6 bow would still be insanely good for instance

OK, I tracked this line, and here are the results:
On her .cre, she has 2 THAC0. I'm not sure if this value is already modified by the kit bonuses or not, but if we add them, she will have -8 THAC0 at 20th level as an Archer, holding a long bow without any enchantment bonuses.
This means (but only if that "2" is not modified by the kit) we can safely reduce the power of her bow - but I must warn you all, her THAC0 will get even better this way...

[T.G.Maestro]

BTW, TG, who is this Black Raven you have mentioned ?

You can read hear much about him if you play IWD2. He is a half-drow, who escaped the Underdark the same way as Drizzt - to the Spine of the World. He was the founder of the Black Raven monastery, and became a legend. So much in a nutshell, and this is all I know.

Now, back to topic, eh?

[Rathwellin the Bard]

On her .cre, she has 2 THAC0. I'm not sure if this value is already modified by the kit bonuses or not, but if we add them, she will have -8 THAC0 at 20th level as an Archer, holding a long bow without any enchantment bonuses.
This means (but only if that "2" is not modified by the kit) we can safely reduce the power of her bow - but I must warn you all, her THAC0 will get even better this way...

That's fine with me.....

B)

[T.G.Maestro]

With me too - to be honest, I never guessed that they added wrong stats to her .cre...
Hmm, maybe they simply added the normal Ranger THAC0 and forgot about the Archer kit bonuses? That would explain things.

[Drasius]

Bit of a random post, but doesn't the precision HLA have some slowing side effects? Wouldn't that be inappropriate for Illasera the Quick?

EDIT:Reworded

Edited by Drasius, 16 September 2004 - 08:01 AM.

[the bigg]

Not if she is Ethereal. In this case, nobody would get to know

[T.G.Maestro]

Not if she is Ethereal. In this case, nobody would get to know

Exactly. It wouldn't really matter for her to be slowed while nearly invulnerable... also, I don't think many would dare to stay in her LoS while she has Precision activated...