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The Revision of the Five


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#121 the bigg

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Posted 09 September 2004 - 01:01 AM

This is illasera's stats & inventory. Possible spoilers, of course.

17 18 16 are the 3 interesting stats.
228 HP (246 accounting the Con).
18th level archer (this means a +6 to thac0 and damage if I am not wrong :( )
** in short bow and dagger (what the &%$/&?), immune to Disintegrate, Imprisonment, Slay, Polymorph, Petrification, stun, sleep % uncosciouness, panic, kill, Mind Flayer brain sucking, charm; sees invisible, 50% resistance to poison, increased movementrate,

She wears a +1 Elven Chain Mail (I dare you laugh at it ;) all the more so because she drops a +2 :lol: )
ring of protection +1
dagger +2
Ice Arrows
2 Superion Healing potions (the 40HP ones)
Boots of Speed

Bows: +9 thac0, 1d6+9 damage, all hit as +5, bonus of 3 attacks per Round

First Bow: -5 magic resistance for 30 sec, dispel effects (automatic version), kills summons, inc and set magic failure to 40 for 18 sec

Second Bow (ILLAS02): +10 magic damage, +5 to max HP for 30 sec, heal 10 HP on hit, stun (save poly -4) for 12 sec, slow (save poly -1) for 12 sec.

Third Bow (ILLAS03): 2d10 magic damage (save death-4 for 1/2), -1 thac0, wing buffet 20 search squares away from self (save death -6), sleep for 2 sec (save death -4)

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Author or Co-Author: WeiDU - Widescreen - Generalized Biffing - Refinements - TB#Tweaks - IWD2Tweaks - TB#Characters - Traify Tool - Some mods that I won't mention in public
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#122 T.G.Maestro

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Posted 09 September 2004 - 02:31 AM

Yeah, she has all the nasty things in her bows thats for sure! :P

Anyway, an idea: wouldn't it be a wise idea to summarize most of these effects on the different bows into one? Truth, it would make her attacks somewhat more powerful, but don't forget, we already reduce her effectiveness on some points!
So, my proposes "all-in-one" bow would look like this:

Illasera's Black Bow (yes, it would be droppable! After slain, she would drop it, so anyone in the party could use it. BUT. Since most of the bow's powers came from Illasera's Bhaalpowers, the dropped version would lose them. Still, it'd be a potent magical item. I'll post the statistics for both versions.

1.: Illasera's Black Bow (used by her):
Weapon type: Long Bow
Damage: +9, + 2D10 magic (save vs. death at -6)
THAC0: +9
Enchantment level: +4 (it shouldn't hit through Absolute Immunity)
Attacks/round: 4
-5% MR for 30 seconds (no save);
automatic dispel on hit (no save);
Spell Failure of 30% for 3 rounds (no save);
slow on hit for 12 sec (save vs. poly at -4)
stun on hit for 6 sec (save vs. poly at -2)
Wing Buffet for a reduced distance (save vs. death at -6)

2.: Illasera's Black Bow (useable by the party after her death) *CURSED*
Weapon type: long bow
Damage: +5, +1D10 magic (save vs. death)
THAC0: +5
Attacks/round bonus: +1
Dispel on hit (20%)
Spell Failure of 30% for 2 rounds (20%)
Reduces CON and CHA by 5
Requires: 16 DEX

Opinions?

Edited by T.G.Maestro, 09 September 2004 - 02:32 AM.

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#123 Schatten

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Posted 09 September 2004 - 03:45 AM

imo make two bows. one as you suggested without winbuffet and one with wingbuffet. the wingbuffet one can be used on melee critters and the other one on others. also get the healing ability on the bow, too.
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#124 T.G.Maestro

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Posted 09 September 2004 - 03:49 AM

You mean it would be nicer if she wouldn't knocking back opponents? True, it can be more deadly. How about reducing the save penalties on that effect to -2 then?

also get the healing ability on the bow

Wouldn't it become too powerful? I don't really like this one anyway.
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#125 Feanor

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Posted 09 September 2004 - 04:30 AM

Damage: +9, + 2D10 magic (save vs. death at -6)


Save vs. death should be reduced to -2 or -4 (maximum). That -6 is the lowest saving throw allowed that I have ever seen, surpasses high-level spells like Bigby's Crushing Hand, Wail of the Banshee, WarCry or Finger of Death. I don't understand why that bow would have such a low saving throw allowed.

#126 T.G.Maestro

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Posted 09 September 2004 - 04:36 AM

That -6 is the lowest saving throw allowed that I have ever seen

Not really. Boss abilities often have even higher penalties. For example many of Improved Bodhi's Matriarch abilities have penlties higher than 10... ;)

I don't understand why that bow would have such a low saving throw allowed.

It's easy to answer: we could always make it a non-save effect, but this allows for the toughest opponents to escape it - no matter how slim that chance is.
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#127 Schatten

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Posted 09 September 2004 - 04:49 AM

You mean it would be nicer if she wouldn't knocking back opponents? True, it can be more deadly. How about reducing the save penalties on that effect to -2 then?

also get the healing ability on the bow

Wouldn't it become too powerful? I don't really like this one anyway.

i mean she can use the buffet bow on melee chars when she get attacked by them. because this way with only one bow the wing buffet is too nasty. or you could use one bow and reduce the buffet to -4 (??).
as for healing.... okay, its powerfull.... perhaps reduce it to 5hp? or just ignore it.
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#128 Feanor

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Posted 09 September 2004 - 05:58 AM

1. About Illasera : Between regeneration and life-stealing effect, I think the latter is more appropriate, due to her alignment.
2. About her bow : that wing buffet sound like nonsense for me. Really, how could a bow knock back opponents, no matter how powerful it is ? In my opinion, that should be dropped, it already has enough powerful abilities, or (if you think it would mean a serious drawback) replace it with something else, maybe a chance for instant death, for instance.
3. Why the dropped bow of Illasera should be cursed and have those penalties ?

#129 J Beau

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Posted 09 September 2004 - 08:19 AM

Any old fighter with a bow and smite can knock back an opponent. If you knock them into a close by wall and you have improved haste cast on you, OUCH!
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Posted 09 September 2004 - 08:35 AM

I seem to recall a +6 enchantment being the minimum required to bypass Absolute Immunity. I think +4 bypasses Improved Mantle, though it could be +5.

#131 Rathwellin the Bard

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Posted 09 September 2004 - 08:59 AM

Rather than having the "Super nasty killer bow of doom" I would rather the big I have a moderately powerful bow, a selection of arrows, and a number of HLAs & specail Bhaal powers. In other words she should be more like a regular PC than a demigoddess.

More scripting yes, but I'm tired of big bosses that cheat. IMO they mostly cheat because it's easier to give them mack-daddy attacks and loads of HP rather than build a really good script. I was really hoping that Refinements would would go the hard but good route rather than the 'easy' way.

And TGM, don't even *start* on Imp. Bodhi. #1 she is a mod creature & #2 some of Wes' changes are just plain silly, the -10 being among them. With the advent of WeiDU Deeper Shadows of Amn and the recent improvements to the G3 Tweak pack I'm going to be avoiding his stuff alltogether.

Oh, and just like Balthazar is to monks, Illasera is one of the reasons I've largely avoided archers. It ticks me off that I could never make a PC that could compete with her even at munchy levels.

Sorry about the grumpy factor. Tired and still irked that my CPU isn't here yet.

Edited by Rathwellin the Bard, 09 September 2004 - 09:03 AM.


#132 the bigg

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Posted 10 September 2004 - 12:36 AM

Yeah, she has all the nasty things in her bows thats for sure! :P

Anyway, an idea: wouldn't it be a wise idea to summarize most of these effects on the different bows into one? Truth, it would make her attacks somewhat more powerful, but don't forget, we already reduce her effectiveness on some points!
So, my proposes "all-in-one" bow would look like this:

Illasera's Black Bow (yes, it would be droppable! After slain, she would drop it, so anyone in the party could use it. BUT. Since most of the bow's powers came from Illasera's Bhaalpowers, the dropped version would lose them. Still, it'd be a potent magical item. I'll post the statistics for both versions.

1.: Illasera's Black Bow (used by her):
Weapon type: Long Bow
Damage: +9, + 2D10 magic (save vs. death at -6)
THAC0: +9
Enchantment level: +4 (it shouldn't hit through Absolute Immunity)
Attacks/round: 4
-5% MR for 30 seconds (no save);
automatic dispel on hit (no save);
Spell Failure of 30% for 3 rounds (no save);
slow on hit for 12 sec (save vs. poly at -4)
stun on hit for 6 sec (save vs. poly at -2)
Wing Buffet for a reduced distance (save vs. death at -6)

2.: Illasera's Black Bow (useable by the party after her death) *CURSED*
Weapon type: long bow
Damage: +5, +1D10 magic (save vs. death)
THAC0: +5
Attacks/round bonus: +1
Dispel on hit (20%)
Spell Failure of 30% for 2 rounds (20%)
Reduces CON and CHA by 5
Requires: 16 DEX

Opinions?

This seems the best solution; of course, with the 2 bows (wing buffet and not wing buffet).
The save to wing buffet could be reduced to a -2; after all, doesn't she also use Precision HLA?
About the life-stealing attacks, I’d say no, cause this will increase the “power gap” .This means that a powergamer party will kill her with more ease, thanks to less HP, while less powerful parties, solo-ers and TOB-only parties won’t be able to overcome her regenerative/life stealing powers (think of Improved Irenicus’ 1 Cure Critical Wounds per round).

Italian users: help test the Stivan NPC!

Author or Co-Author: WeiDU - Widescreen - Generalized Biffing - Refinements - TB#Tweaks - IWD2Tweaks - TB#Characters - Traify Tool - Some mods that I won't mention in public
Maintainer: Semi-Multi Clerics - Nalia Mod - Nvidia Fix
Code dumps: Detect custom secondary types - Stutter Investigator

If possible, send diffs, translations and other contributions using Git.


#133 -Guest-

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Posted 10 September 2004 - 04:32 AM

Any old fighter with a bow and smite can knock back an opponent. If you knock them into a close by wall and you have improved haste cast on you, OUCH!

Illasera is not a fighter. :P And the knocking back effect of a fighter is due to a HLA.

But we must clarify something : that wing buffet is a special ability of the bow which can be used once per day or it's a permanent effect of the arrows (I mean every arrow knock the opponent back when it hits him) ? :huh: For me, it seems it's the latter, but I'm not very sure. <_<

And I still think that -6 saving throw for the magic damage is too much. Remember that it's permanent : every shot will require such a save, while Bodhi's abilities are limited.

#134 Feanor

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Posted 10 September 2004 - 04:35 AM

That guest above was me, forgot to login.

#135 GreyViper

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Posted 10 September 2004 - 05:00 AM

But we must clarify something : that wing buffet is a special ability of the bow which can be used once per day or it's a permanent effect of the arrows (I mean every arrow knock the opponent back when it hits him) ?  For me, it seems it's the latter, but I'm not very sure.

I would have to agree, its the arrows usually that knock bodies back. Maybe the bow has been encanted for extra punch an arcane mass driver of a sort. :P
Btw I dont get the black bow part? Is it necromantic(life drain and later the penalt to con & cha) and did she make the bow hereself?
The second bow sucks maybe make it so that she would drop the first one, but chance are 5% for it to happen. Or only archer kit can fully use this bows potential(him being a bhaal spawn of course).

Edited by GreyViper, 10 September 2004 - 05:02 AM.

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#136 Feanor

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Posted 10 September 2004 - 05:12 AM

In my opinion, a bow would have a knock effect only id it shots with hammers. :D

#137 Rathwellin the Bard

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Posted 10 September 2004 - 12:32 PM

yes. Blow thru is more likely than blowback with a bow.

#138 Schatten

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Posted 10 September 2004 - 02:39 PM

In my opinion, a bow would have a knock effect only id it shots with hammers. :D

magical enhance the string and the power of the bow and have a plate in the middle of the arrow so it can pierce and damage you and knock you back. simple. ;) :D
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Posted 11 September 2004 - 06:43 PM

... only an arrow with a wide, flat plate attached and perpendicular to the shaft would suffer from air resistance something awful.

#140 T.G.Maestro

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Posted 11 September 2004 - 11:56 PM

Rather than having the "Super nasty killer bow of doom" I would rather the big I have a moderately powerful bow, a selection of arrows, and a number of HLAs & specail Bhaal powers. In other words she should be more like a regular PC than a demigoddess.
More scripting yes, but I'm tired of big bosses that cheat. IMO they mostly cheat because it's easier to give them mack-daddy attacks and loads of HP rather than build a really good script. I was really hoping that Refinements would would go the hard but good route rather than the 'easy' way.

Now, we must separate two things here Rath. First, I agree, one must use better scripting instead of super-power files. I always praised the CoC encounter done by aVENGER, it was the best example how a hard battle should look like - without using any superpowers at all.
On the other hand, this battle (and all the Five battles) is different. Accept it or not, the whole plot of ToB is built upon uber characters and uber opponents. Don't forget that we aren't talking about normal archwers, monks, dragons here.. no, we are talking about the most uber-deadly archers, monks and dragons. These are no ordinary opponents, these are superhuman foes, all of them. They all have a noteable amount of powers at their disposal, so it's not just scripting. Either way, they are considered to be more powerful than most other characters of their level.
So, what I (we) promise in Refinements: all these super-foes with more believeable and nastier scripts and tactics. Overall things will be tougher, I believe.

Oh, and just like Balthazar is to monks, Illasera is one of the reasons I've largely avoided archers. It ticks me off that I could never make a PC that could compete with her even at munchy levels

Nono, this reasoning has its flaws, as I tried to point it out on many different topics before. Yes, Balthazar may be more powerful at start than PC monk at the same level - he has better HP, better regeneration, better statistics and better HLAs (not true once Refinements is installed, even more so with the upcoming new HLAs in v2). Still, he lacks many abilities the player has: for example the Slayer. And really, the PC is NOT the most poweful Bhaalspawn ever born on Faerun - he only becomes the greatest of them, and only AT THE END of the saga.
Also, the fact that some people claimed that Kiara can take care of I.Balthazar by herself, is rather warning to me... ;)

This seems the best solution; of course, with the 2 bows (wing buffet and not wing buffet).

Before someone might get me wrong, I suggested that she should use one 1 bow, the more powerful one in my description. The other one (with the nerfed abilities) should be droppable and useable by the party.

The save to wing buffet could be reduced to a -2

Thats exactly what I was suggesting.

About the life-stealing attacks, I?d say no, cause this will increase the ?power gap? .This means that a powergamer party will kill her with more ease, thanks to less HP, while less powerful parties, solo-ers and TOB-only parties won?t be able to overcome her regenerative/life stealing powers

Agreed, good points.

Illasera is not a fighter.  And the knocking back effect of a fighter is due to a HLA.

And as I remember, in unmodded ToB rangers would get this HLA as well... :P

And I still think that -6 saving throw for the magic damage is too much. Remember that it's permanent : every shot will require such a save, while Bodhi's abilities are limited

No, I'm positive the -6 on the damage will remain, and trust me it is essential. And BTW, the same -6 was used on her original bow as well, as I remember. Maybe - and I say MAYBE- we could lower it to -4.

I would have to agree, its the arrows usually that knock bodies back. Maybe the bow has been encanted for extra punch an arcane mass driver of a sort. 
Btw I dont get the black bow part? Is it necromantic(life drain and later the penalt to con & cha) and did she make the bow hereself?

In my interpretation, her bow was partially enchanted by someone else (maybe a powerful mage, maybe she found it in an ancient ruin, who knows?) and partially enchanted by her own powers. She is a potent Bhaalspawn, and among her other abilities, one could be to improve her bow with deadly powers. Remember, she sucks big time with any other weapon (for example with her dagger), with those in her hand she wouldn't stand for a minute against the PC. Her only real power lies in her skill with her special bow.
And about the curse on it: that comes from her link with her weapon. Parts of Illasera are now forger into the bow itself, they were almost one. This will be clarified in the description of the dropped weapon of course.

The second bow sucks

Some small improvement could be acceptable I guess, but the drawbacks will remain.
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