202 replies to this topic

[SimDing0]

Jinnai, on Jun 10 2004, 06:09 PM, said:

Then there is also no good reason for changing anything on him, his armor included as there are always exceptions to the rule for classes, especially non-playable ones.

Changing his armour is likely to make the game more fun/sensible/whatever. You still haven't provided an ingame reason for him not to be the same class as he is now.

Edited by SimDing0, 10 June 2004 - 01:45 PM.

[Jinnai]

I could say the same thing for making him a F?T.

You've given no good reason either, atleast no better than mine and worse because atleast I can back mine up with the fact that it is based on someone and should resemeble that person moreso than it does.

[Kish]

"[Gromnir]...should resemble [the forumite who gave him his name] moreso than it does" is not a fact.

[Jinnai]

Kish, on Jun 10 2004, 08:33 PM, said:

"[Gromnir]...should resemble [the forumite who gave him his name] moreso than it does" is not a fact.

Non-pc Barbarians not being able to wear plate armor isn't either otherwise he'd not be wearing it in the current version. Just because a pc can doesn't mean anything. If it did Batlazar FE wouldn't have any of his stances in unmodded.

[SimDing0]

Jinnai, on Jun 11 2004, 02:18 AM, said:

You've given no good reason either, atleast no better than mine and worse because atleast I can back mine up with the fact that it is based on someone and should resemeble that person moreso than it does.

I assume that you continuing to ignore my request for an ingame reason to make changes is a concession that you have none.
On the other hand, a barbarian matches Gromnir's personality perfectly. Although I hadn't even said that I thought Gromnir should be one... so you're asking me to, what? Justify making NO changes? That's logical.

[T.G.Maestro]

Ok guys, time to close this line of the debate. Actually, I have nothing against this discussion, but I'd be more interested in hearing comments/suggestions on those elements of this component that will become reality. Here are my last 2 cents on this subject:

- Refinements aims to revise the Five battles following ToB's standards. The only completely new aspects will be our additional HLAs for them. Aside from these, we will only try to make them fight/react/think better in specific situations. And while we are adding a few new elements to these encounters, we try to stay close to the original concepts. We don't change Agazigal to a Tarrasque, and won't turn Amelisan into a Halfling Bard. Such changes (be it fitting or not) are out of the scope of Refinements. If someone wants to make an alternate component to a tweak-pack (a F/T Gromnir, based on his name-giver's thoughts), I'll have no objections against it, and maybe I'll even try it sometimes. But once again, Refinements has nothing to do with this kind of changes.

- There are several technical problems with Gromnir's class/race change. First, all his dialogues are heavily connected to the assumption that he is an orc, and a fighting type. Any change in his race/class would result in inconsistencies, so we'd have to modify these dialogues as well. Second, his soundset is that of an orc too. What would you advise, dropping these (otherwise great) voiceclips when we turn him into a human F/T? Wouldn't this be a bit high price for the change?

- Logical problem: there is Eler Had in Gromnir's party. He is a Fighter/Thief. And a human F/T. Do you truly think we'd need two of them? Or maybe you are suggesting to change Eler Had into a Half-Orc Berserker in Full-plate?

- And finally, there is a great difference between an armor change (even more so if that armor is illegal for that type of character) and a complete class/race change based on a forum-member's character. While the first comes from a pure technical reason, the second is based on heavy assumptions. And even if those assumptions have merit (and I have no doubts that they have!), it is rather questionable for me to base any changes on a working and fitting character simply to get it closer to someone's ideals. The case of Gromnir is not the only example for Bio putting a RL character into the game, there is Kalthorine ut Wistan in WK.

[Jinnai]

T.G.Maestro, on Jun 11 2004, 02:26 AM, said:

- ... What would you advise, dropping these (otherwise great) voiceclips when we turn him into a human F/T? Wouldn't this be a bit high price for the change?

- Logical problem: there is Eler Had in Gromnir's party. He is a Fighter/Thief. And a human F/T. Do you truly think we'd need two of them? Or maybe you are suggesting to change Eler Had into a Half-Orc Berserker in Full-plate?  

- And finally, there is a great difference between an armor change (even more so if that armor is illegal for that type of character) and a complete class/race change based on a forum-member's character. While the first comes from a pure technical reason, the second is based on heavy assumptions. And even if those assumptions have merit (and I have no doubts that they have!), it is rather questionable for me to base any changes on a working and fitting character simply to get it closer to someone's ideals. The case of Gromnir is not the only example for Bio putting a RL character into the game, there is Kalthorine ut Wistan in WK.

Well since you asked (and only because you did), i never said he shouldn't be a human. Even Rathwellin mentioned he'd not mind Gromnir being a half-orc or whatever as many people on the board thought so at one time. As to Eler Had, we could make him a Human Barbarian.

As to being a F/T we let many things IRL influence how things are done in the game, including most proliferously, dialouge.

Edited by Jinnai, 13 June 2004 - 06:13 PM.

[T.G.Maestro]

Since this will be the first (and maybe the only) upcoming component for v2, I'd like to hear any other comments you might have about the encounters detailed above.
I only ask this because once we start to work on the files and scripts (in a few weeks, hopefully in July), there will be little chance to apply any suggestions coming from an outer source.

[the bigg]

Well, I'd say that everything is OK and fun/challenging/doable.
As I've already said, in any case, the only thing that is impossible to do in all your listing is ignoring helmeted foes with Critical Strike on part of Abazigal.
And also, he can attack Mordies: poison and magical damage can both kill Mordies (at least, I usually kill them with Magic Missiles, and I've read on some FAQ that they can be poisoned...)

[T.G.Maestro]

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Well, I'd say that everything is OK and fun/challenging/doable

Great news.

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also, he can attack Mordies: poison and magical damage can both kill Mordies

I know about the magic damage vulnerability, but are they also vulnerable to poison damage?! A magical piece of iron/steel is vulnerable to poison?
Still, I remember him killing those mordies by Deathblows, I'm not sure about anything else. Plus, his weapon hasn't got any magic damage bonus, only some poison damage.

[the bigg]

I dunno, I saw it in Dan Simpson's FAQ. Anyway, open sword01.cre, ipsion.itm and morsword.itm with NI, you won't see any "immunity to poison" effect.

[T.G.Maestro]

I guess we shouldn't disturb his human form, right? Still, it is a little strange that in the final Ascension battle he has loads of high-level mage spells at his disposal while in the crystal cavern he only uses his fighter skills against the party (at least in human form).
To be honest, I prefer him as a kensai. If it would be possible to make him at least nearly as challanging as he is at the Ascension final without adding him crazy magical defensive arsenal, and removing his offensive spells as well, I'd clearly vote for a change. I always hated the fact that he keeps casting Imprisonments and that sort of thing. Don't know why, but he always looked much more a fighter to me than a mage...

[Littiz]

We need permissions before doing anything.

Otherwise, we should build entirely new versions (something I wouldn't want to do)

[T.G.Maestro]

Of course, the permissions will be the first thing to get.

Edited by T.G.Maestro, 24 June 2004 - 02:17 AM.

[Andyr]

If you're saying that you're finalising stuff now, could you post a summary of the revisions? I've read the thread, but I'm not sure what the current thoughts are.

[the bigg]

T.G.Maestro, on Jun 24 2004, 10:02 AM, said:

I guess we shouldn't disturb his human form, right? Still, it is a little strange that in the final Ascension battle he has loads of high-level mage spells at his disposal while in the crystal cavern he only uses his fighter skills against the party (at least in human form).

Maybe it was buffed by Sendai, or, while in the Abyss, he clicked the "Dual Class" button
Or he was potion-swapping B)
Seriously, though, we can ask Gaider for details.
Still, Draconis was some sort of fighter/mage, as I recall, so we could port this to Abaz

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To be honest, I prefer him as a kensai. If it would be possible to make him at least nearly as challanging as he is at the Ascension final without adding him crazy magical defensive arsenal, and removing his offensive spells as well, I'd clearly vote for a change. I always hated the fact that he keeps casting Imprisonments and that sort of thing. Don't know why, but he always looked much more a fighter to me than a mage...

Duh... making a kensai to be as much powerful up as a kensai-mage is nigh-impossible... I wonder, do you remember a guy named Kuroisan? Do you believe that as a pure kensai Kuroisan would be as much dangerous as he is now?

Especially now he doesn't have Toughness, in human form he is a cake walk.

Ascension would lose much of its interest, when you can GWW and kill everybody so easily. And, from a logical POV, Asc has already galore finesse fighters (Balthazar, Illasera) and brutal fighters (Sarevok, Gromnir, Yaga-Shura, Melissan) but small to no spellcasters (Sendai and Abaz, who doesn't even actively cast). It would then turn in a melee rumble, I fear...

[Feanor]

One questions, guys :

[/QUOTE]I always hated the fact that he keeps casting Imprisonments and that sort of thing. Don't know why, but he always looked much more a fighter to me than a mage... [QUOTE]

Who's this one who casts Imprisonment ? Abazigal ?

[the bigg]

Yes, in the Dragon form.

[T.G.Maestro]

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Yes, in the Dragon form.

Of course we are talking about the Ascension version here.