202 replies to this topic

[Jinnai]

T.G.Maestro, on Jun 9 2004, 02:55 PM, said:

Random? What do you mean by "random"? Remaining true to his BG2 implementation (which works perfectly and fits into the plot very well) and correcting the obvious bugs like removing his full-plate?
Do you REALLY think that a F/T Gromnir would be more interesting thatn a half-orc Barbarian?

And have you thought about the soundset and his dialogues? They clearly refer to him as an orc (half-orc). Would you change them as well to fit your version?

Well i do like him as a half-orc and i'd like to keep the sounset, but c'mon! Lets get something other than barbarian or beserker half-orcs!

Although its a bit OT, a half-orc monk now that would be something to see...

Edited by Jinnai, 09 June 2004 - 01:50 PM.

[T.G.Maestro]

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but c'mon! Lets get something other than barbarian or beserker half-orcs!

Guys, it would be nice to accept that half-orcs are half-orcs. They won't get awesome magical talents or sneaky abilities. Their whole nature binds themselves to the fighter/barbarian/shaman(cleric) profession.

Quote

Although its a bit OT, a half-orc monk now that would be something to see...

Not as long as I live!

[Rathwellin the Bard]

T.G.Maestro, on Jun 9 2004, 04:55 PM, said:

Random? What do you mean by "random"? Remaining true to his BG2 implementation (which works perfectly and fits into the plot very well) and correcting the obvious bugs like removing his full-plate?
Do you REALLY think that a F/T Gromnir would be more interesting thatn a half-orc Barbarian?

And have you thought about the soundset and his dialogues? They clearly refer to him as an orc (half-orc). Would you change them as well to fit your version?

The race thing I understand. It seemed like half the folks on the boards took him for a half ork at one point.

However, by random I mean that you are not chaning him to fit better in the game, you are putting *your* spin on Gromnir which is random since all you are going off is the equivilant of "gee, his armor doesn't match his kit/class" and don't seem to be taking anything else into account.

Unlike the 5 we actually have out of game sources for Gromnir and we have active players who remember him even before his character was in the game.

Gromnir had a thing about killing elves.

Gromnir had something like a 3 INT & a high WIS since the *manual* said that there was going to be a bonus for saves vs some spells for high Wis and the player sacrificed Int for this phantom Wis bonus. The poster ragged Bioware about that nearly as much as Karzak ragged them about nerfing the thief class.

I could go on but anything you do without research will feel very hollow to me.

And thus the "whatever."

Edited by Rathwellin the Bard, 09 June 2004 - 04:50 PM.

[Jinnai]

T.G.Maestro, on Jun 9 2004, 04:00 PM, said:

Quote

but c'mon! Lets get something other than barbarian or beserker half-orcs!

Guys, it would be nice to accept that half-orcs are half-orcs. They won't get awesome magical talents or sneaky abilities. Their whole nature binds themselves to the fighter/barbarian/shaman(cleric) profession.

Half-orcs are predispoded to certain things, just like elves are. That doesn't mean they're restricted. Even in PO:SP which had half-orcs they were not resticted from thief class...in fact they had a chance of getting higher levels in theivery than a cleric (10 F, 8 T, 4 C).

Edited by Jinnai, 09 June 2004 - 07:24 PM.

[the bigg]

Actually, an Half-Orc can be a F/T. Anyway, since Eler Had is a F/T, there's no need to change also Gronmir then. One F/T is enough for every party. I simply fear that Gromnir will become even the less fearful Bhaalspawn in his battle, if I exploit to the full Eler Had's potential...

Edited by the bigg, 09 June 2004 - 11:32 PM.

[SimDing0]

Rathwellin the Bard, on Jun 10 2004, 12:39 AM, said:

I could go on but anything you do without research will feel very hollow to me.

Tell us again. From a perspective INGAME, why should Gromnir be any different from what he is now? Out of game sources are utterly irrelevant.

[Rathwellin the Bard]

SimDing0, on Jun 10 2004, 04:43 AM, said:

Out of game sources are utterly irrelevant.

If that were true then folks wouldn't bother referring to PnP D&D sources all the time. You wouldn't have mods like Caedwyr's P&P Celestials.

Now I understand that Refinements isn't about making things PnP nor would I expect any to try to make an "Gromnir as Online" mod.

What I would expect is that the online sources are looked at & taken into consideration when making changes ... even if said changes were not in line with what is out there.

In game Grommy doesn't make much sense. Never has. He is a minor fighting boss you have to kill to prove how easy the big M can dupe you. In game he could just as easily be a non-kit fighter or even a ranger and still serve the same plot purpose.

[SimDing0]

Rathwellin the Bard, on Jun 10 2004, 12:41 PM, said:

If that were true then folks wouldn't bother referring to PnP D&D sources all the time. You wouldn't have mods like Caedwyr's P&P Celestials.

Aside from the fact that BG2 is not, and never will be, PnP, the D&D rules are something that were designed to improve the game and function well in the situation. The Gromnir thing is nothing of the sort, and unless you can provide any reason why that Gromnir would be better ingame than the existing one, you're arguing on thin ground. Even implementing D&D rules requires justification within the game setting.

[T.G.Maestro]

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Aside from the fact that BG2 is not, and never will be, PnP, the D&D rules are something that were designed to improve the game and function well in the situation. The Gromnir thing is nothing of the sort, and unless you can provide any reason why that Gromnir would be better ingame than the existing one, you're arguing on thin ground. Even implementing D&D rules requires justification within the game setting

I couldn't agree more here.

[Feanor]

SimDing0, on Jun 10 2004, 11:43 AM, said:

Rathwellin the Bard, on Jun 10 2004, 12:39 AM, said:

I could go on but anything you do without research will feel very hollow to me.

Out of game sources are utterly irrelevant.

Sim, generally speaking, I think we should use out of game sources (if they are related to ADD, of course), because BG2 was set in Toril, not Toril designed for BG2. If we totally ignore those kind of sources, I have a feeling we would approach to chaos.

[T.G.Maestro]

The Dingo meant that we must use these sources with caution - BG2 is BASED on pnp, but clearly uses a different system. We should use those sources where we see fit, and where the game can benefit them.

[Schatten]

BG2 is BASED on pnp, but clearly uses a different system.


because of engine limitations and not because the devs want a different setting.




We should use those sources where we see fit, and where the game can benefit them.


agreed. so, tell me, what pnp rules kill bg2 that is based on most of those rules and why?

[SimDing0]

Schatten, on Jun 10 2004, 03:16 PM, said:

agreed. so, tell me, what pnp rules kill bg2 that is based on most of those rules and why?

Some poisons in PnP kill instantly unless you save. Echon wanted to put this in his mod, and I strongly opposed it. Correct me if I'm wrong, but BG's implementation of poison is far better than having it as Yet Another Vorpal Effect.

[Schatten]

sorry, some poisons are able kill you if not treated properly like those of the pit fiend and such tough enemies should have them. nothing wrong with that.

[SimDing0]

Thank you for preceding your post with an apology. It was much appreciated.

But sorry, I'm not suggesting that poison shouldn't kill you. I'm suggesting that poison that kills you instantly is rubbish. And let's go a step further, and say that in BG1, it's impossible to code an antidote to protect from this instant death, making it an even worse idea.

[Schatten]

Notmrt, on Jun 10 2004, 04:48 PM, said:

Cyanide kills you within a few seconds but from a gameplay standpoin i realy cant support any form of insta death

i didnt say anybody has such mighty poison. even in rl not everybody has them. they are rare and some mighty foes can have them. and its not always instant kill. the cleric can heal you in a specific time frame.

[Andyr]

Though it seems to have stopped now, can we please not flame MPrilla?

I agree with Sim, Kish, TGM and the others - there's no need or good reason to change Gromnir to a F/T...

[Jinnai]

Then there is also no good reason for changing anything on him, his armor included as there are always exceptions to the rule for classes, especially non-playable ones.

Edited by Jinnai, 10 June 2004 - 10:20 AM.

[Rathwellin the Bard]

Heh. And one could change the armor will even *less* impact to the game for that matter.