202 replies to this topic

[T.G.Maestro]

After a few discussions between the authors, it gets more and more likely that v2 of Refinements will include the first parts of the "Creature Revisions" component. This will be a massive modification component once it will be finished, and will affect many creature types in SoA and ToB, including boss battles. The first part will handle the ToB "Five" encounters - here are the raw details:

a., Illasera & Co.:
- Illasera should get our Precision HLA.
- she should get our Endurance HLA.
- she shouldn't be able to cast clerical spells because of her fallen status, so I'd advise to remove her Cure Critical Wounds spells and grant her 2 additional Potions of Superior Healing.
- she shouldn't be immune to almost everything, I mean Uncounsciousness for example.
- we could reduce her HPs (225) to 180 and boost her with regeneration or life-stealing attacks to compensate.
- her arrows shouldn't dispel summons.
- we should slightly revise the levels and stats of the Black Reavers, there are more than a few inconsistencies there. I'd suggest balancing them a bit - the cleric's hit points should be reduced from the current (crazy) value, while the ogre could have a boost. That ogre would benefit from a class/kit change, I think we could turn him into a Berserker (he is vanilla fighter). At least 1 or 2 of the Reavers should reach the HLA level in experience. I'd grant the teleporting fighter 1 Whirlwind attack.
- the Reavers should arrive to the Glare prepared for combat. The cleric and the mage should have a few basic protections (Stoneskin, Death Ward, etc.).
- the melee Reavers (the dual-wielding human and the ogre) should use potions at the start and in the middle of the battle if needed. Currently they only use a few healing potions, they should have at least 1 other potion too.

b., Balthazar:
- his stats would be revised somewhat according to my changes on his .cre.
- he should get a few items to wear: a lesser robe, a girdle, a ring and an amulet. None of these would be special items, simply classical magical items like amulet of Protection +1.
- he should be immune to slow, as he should be.
- he should get special +4 fists with a few minor offensive bonuses.
- his script should be heavily modified. He should use his current abilities much more precise and more often. He should get a few HLAs from our new monk table too: Inner Time and Evasions.
- he should always use Faster Than the Eye to escape dangerous situations
- his pupils should receive some of his special powers (one for each). One of them should get Shadowless Kick, one should get Tiger Strike, while the others would get either Faster Than the Eye or Chant.
- he should have additional supporters in the combat: a HLA level (19th level) battle mage should appear in the combat too. And here would come the greatest change from the original encounter. He has an army of mercenaries waiting for his command, right? Now, honourable or not, I don't think he wouldn't use them against the Bhaalspawn in the time of such peril. After a specified time these mercenaries would start to enter the room and join the fight answering his call. There would be ranged and melee versions too (using the .cres of the soldiers in Amkethran). The ranged mercenaries would always attack from the sides, while the melee fighters would attack the party. A new mercenary or monk would appear every round. We could even add another mage and a liutenant to the mix. These opponents would appear as long as B lives - once he is dead, they'd flee and escape Amkethran.

c., Yaga-Shura:
- he should benefit from his weapon's bonuses.
- he should use potions after he returns.
- he should use Power Attack, Critical Strike and Smite.
- again, his special abilities should be used a bit more often and more precise.
- the spawning rate of his army should be significantly increased once he returns. Every round a normal "cannon fodder" should appear (using the original selection of warriors, mages and Fire Giants) and eery 2nd round an additional opponent should appear (a tougher warrior 45%, a Fire Giant 35%, or even an Elite F. Giant 20%). I always found it ridiculous that his "army" stands of less than 50 creatures, and his "reinforcements" means 4 average liutenants with completely no soldiers at their disposal...
- we should decrease the charges of the summoning wands used by the mages, or make them use it more often. The party can get crazy amount of extra summons by looting the corpses after the battle. The same goes for potions.

d., Sendai:
- Kish did a nice work here, I don't feel we need to change anything.

e., Abazigal:
- Abazigal should use our kensai HLA table in his human form. He should definitely use True Kai and offensive powers like Smite and Power Attack. He should only use Critical Strike against opponents WITHOUT helmets. We should remove his Hardiness abilities, since Refinements Kensai no longer get it.
- he should ignore "invincible" summons like Mordy Swords, or should use Greater Deathblow to remove them.
- he really shouldn't cast Imprisonments in Dragon Form.
- we should revise Tamah. Amethyst Dragons are heavy psionic users, so we should grant her many of the Mind Flayer powers including Psionic Blast, Detonate, Ballistic Attack, Psionic Domination, Invisibility. Also, her breath weapon should be made more fitting to the pnp counterpart. We should modifiy ALL dragons in the game (I'll detail this in another post later) to have their pnp abilities and unique characteristics.
- I'm not sure about the young Drakes used by Wes, I never really liked them. They are too powerful for a young dragon, and their "multicolor" nature keeps bothering me as well... if we would be able to add the Half-Dragon creature bams to the game (from IWD2), we could really replace them with these creatures.
- The Frost Salamanders are also a "bit" strange in a desert cave...:-O

So much for now. These changes would serve as nice and fitting improvements and corrections to these bosses, and would be a great start for the Creature Revisions component in v2. Of course we need to ask the authors of Ascension for permission to alter these battles.

Opinions, ideas?

Edited by T.G.Maestro, 13 October 2004 - 12:29 PM.

[Galactygon]

Too many powerful spellcasters and munchkinism in Balthazar's & Yaga-Shura's encounter. If I were you, I'd remove that powerful battle-mage, and increase the level difference between the boss and the fodder. IMO the fodder should fight next to the boss and guard him so the boss gets hit the least often, and the fodder takes the blows. While I agree the boss should be incredibly powerful, I don't understand why the fodder should be level 14+. By that time, the fodder would easily overrun the boss. Also, reducing the # of spellcasters would be a plus rather than adding them. The game slowed down incredibly during the Ascension battle (which is the #1 reason I am not an ascension-fan), and my computer is an above average one. So yeah, reducing the spellcaster count reduces the number of animations and speeds up the game.

-Galactygon

[T.G.Maestro]

Thank you for the comments Galactygon!

If I were you, I'd remove that powerful battle-mage

I don't think we will add any more wizards or spellcasters to the Balthazar battle, but this one has its prpose, and would make that encounter way more challanging . And one mage won't slow down an average computer.

IMO the fodder should fight next to the boss and guard him so the boss gets hit the least often, and the fodder takes the blows

This is true in the case of Yaga-Dhura, but not for Balthazar. He is an honourable fighter - he would never hide behind weak soldiers to heal his wounds. I picture him a real tactican frontline fighter. But this doesn't mean he cannot command his hired mercenaries against the party if he seems to lose.

I don't understand why the fodder should be level 14+.

The fodder will be exactly the same level as the original .cres in Balthazar's army. We will use the classic Amkethran soldiers and some mid-level monks. Only his 4 pupils and the mage will be somewhat tougher.

The Yaga-Shura battle will be a computer-draining encounter though, without question.
We will test it on different computers before release to avoid such problems.

Edited by T.G.Maestro, 05 June 2004 - 09:18 AM.

[Andyr]

I don't think Illasera needs to lose her Clerical spells. You could always say it's her Bhaal essence manifesting them - otherwise, how do Sendai and Melisaan cast spells?

[T.G.Maestro]

I don't think Illasera needs to lose her Clerical spells. You could always say it's her Bhaal essence manifesting them - otherwise, how do Sendai and Melisaan cast spells?

I don't really understand your point Andy. Illasera is an Archer (Ranger), while both Sendai and Melissan are Cleric/Mages. Clerics cannot fall, so there is really no reason why they should lose their spellcasting abilities. The same goes for mages. On the other side, Rangers lose their spellcasting powers as soon as they become "Fallen".
And if you are referring to their connection to Bhaal: I'm sure that Sendai gets her divine powers from another god, maybe from Lloth herself, just as any other cleric NPC or PC from another faith. Melissan is a different story, she is perhaps the last (and most powerful) high-priestess of the dead god of murder, and she has clear access to the Throne of Blood. She can have dozens of sources for her clerical powers.

Again, I'm positive that Illasera's Cure spells weren't meant to be Bhaalpowers, and in this case she should lose them without question. Or we can keep them, but only as scrolls.

[Galactygon]

What about Gromnir? Is he left out (as always)?

As for one mage slowing down combat, monks (espcially ones with large movement rates) also slow down the combat.

Also, will the mage be the same 'ol boring Timestop-Wail of the Banshee-Symbol, Stun, fear, etc. mage? You know, I've never seen mages actually cast Prismatic Spray, Shapechange, Power Word: Kill, Mass Invisibility, etc.

What I really want to see in Refinements is that HLA mages are different from each other. Why does everyone have to cast Timestop and Wail of the Banshee, when there are TONS of spells (some useful) out there to cast?

What about enemy mages casting wish?

-Galactygon

[T.G.Maestro]

What about Gromnir? Is he left out (as always)?

I intend to Refine that one as well, but only after the Five. Gromnir is a small fish compared to the others. Still, the fact that his improved version introduces numerous Bhaalspawns, it would be interesting to play with the addition of some new Refinements powers...

Also, will the mage be the same 'ol boring Timestop-Wail of the Banshee-Symbol, Stun, fear, etc. mage?

Of course not - that is the reason why I intedn to add him. We will try to synchronize his actions to Balthzar, so this two will both benefit from the others power.

What I really want to see in Refinements is that HLA mages are different from each other

You can expect this battle mage to use at least a few of the Refinements mage HLAs.
Of course the list of future revisions is almost endless. For example there is the high-mage defending the walls of Saradush, or Kharun the Black - they are both HLA level mages, so adding some variety to their spells wouldn't be too much of a problem.

What about enemy mages casting wish?

Eh, now I wouldn't really use this. Wish is something unpredictable, unless you are extremely well prepared and have very high stats. Using it is like summoning a Pit Fiend into a room full of friends and foes and hope that it will target the opponents first... while its effects can be used properly by an intelligent player, I don't see how the BG2 AI could simulate that.

[Andyr]

Why is Illasera Fallen?

The ranger class could just be a convenient way to represent her unique abilities...

[Kish]

d., Sendai:
- Kish did a nice work here, I don't feel we need to change anything.

Wow, thanks.

- I'm not sure about the young Drakes used by Wes, I never really liked them.

Just for the record, the Drakes and everything else about Tougher Abazigal is pure David Gaider, only converted to WeiDU by Wes.

[igi]

I'd suggest 'Five Revisions', rather than creature revisions, as you may want to use the more generic name for another component later on.

[Littiz]

@Andyr:
Rangers are supposed to be good.

The size of Yaga Shura's army should not be increased, imho. This is not the ideal game for such kind of battles.

It won't be easy to find Dave Gaider, I fear...
We'll see.

[Rathwellin the Bard]

I?ve held off posting on this topic for a while now.

First I want to say that I?m *very* nervous about the idea of tweaking the 5. There are several factors here.

1. Scripting. Any changes you make will likely require scripting support. The new abilities suggested do make sense in some cases but I fear that it will take quite a bit of scripting to make them work properly. That?s all well and good if you have a serious scripter on the team, but from what I understand this is neither TGM or Littiz?s area of greatest strength. IMO adding stuff without proper scripting support is a waste of time. You guys would need to seriously bone up on scripting or get some additional help to really do this right.

2. Compatibility. Not everyone plays with Ascension so you would have to plan for both scenarios or incorporate huge chunks of Ascension into your mod.

3. Difficulty. Not everyone likes tougher battles. I?ve gotten to the point where I do in a lot of cases. Still some suggestions, like the enhanced Yaga army spawning above seem like a really bad idea to me. I also worry a *lot* about how these changes would impact the final Ascension battle. My stars that one is next to impossible for me right now anyway. While I might like the individual encounters to be a bit more making Ascension tougher just makes me shiver.

4. Bugs. I?ve already run into the Bug that makes Yaga Shura practically unbeatable (the variables that reduce his vulnerability over time didn?t get set). IMO you guys are going to have to be extra careful about stuff like this in tweaking the battles with the 5. Again this one may go back to scripting support needed.

Now for suggestions.

Illasera

First I would change Illasera to a Generic Archer Fighter kit from Weimer?s mods. No need to make this a player selectable kit for Refinements, but it would make sense for Illa. This would take out her cleric powers all together. A good thing IMO. My suggestion for getting rid of her summoning dispel arrows would be to give her a few levels of Mage or Thief for (allowed with Generic Archer) ... and give her a few death spells or death spell scrolls.

It?s worth noting that the original concept for Illasera was for her to be a Ranger/Mage. The Illasera you met in the Grove was merely some sort of clone with fighting abilities but not many spells. You were going to get to meet the real Illasera in Saradush. This one would have Mage spells out the wazoo. This of course was changed in development of the game and yet again in Ascension.

HP changes suggested for her crew make sense too.

As for the teleporting guy I thought that he was a Thief. I seem to recall him doing backstabs. I would suggest other changes than Whirlwind in any case. He strikes me as more of a precision guy than a fast chopper.

I?m with the Illasera?s crew buffing a bit before the battle but my suggestion would be to limit the buffing and potion use by difficulty level. No pre-buffing or extra potions on Novice. A little on Normal. A lot of this on Insane. Also if you give them extra potions please make them droppable.

Yaga-Shura

I?m not entirely comfortable with the idea of extra spawns. My old PC could hardly handle this battle as it was. It would slow and churn as it tried to process all those creature scripts. Difficulty was a factor here as well.

Yaga-Shura has always been the last to fall in this battle for me so *if* you do increase summons then make sure that everything is scripted to run after he falls.

Abazigal

I don?t fully agree with you re: critical strike only on non-helmeted foes. He benefits from this against super low AC foes like Swashbuckers even if they are helmeted.

About ?invincible? summons ... can?t his sword affect them? I was pretty sure that it can.

I?m not really bothered by the multi-colored dragons. Abazigal is trying to build a dragon army after all. Not just a red dragon army or green dragon army.

Balthazar

My suggestion here is to not spawn extra mercs. Sure he would have them but Balthazar always struck me as the Honorable type. IMO the best solution would be for him to have a group that matches yours. In solo games he would fight the PC one-on-one. Against parties he would have 1 companion for each party member. Perhaps the Merc leaders.

[Feanor]

Balthazar

My suggestion here is to not spawn extra mercs. Sure he would have them but Balthazar always struck me as the Honorable type. IMO the best solution would be for him to have a group that matches yours. In solo games he would fight the PC one-on-one. Against parties he would have 1 companion for each party member. Perhaps the Merc leaders.

Agreed. Yes, Balthazar has an army of mercenaries at his disposal, but the player can destroy it before entering the monastery.

[Schatten]

"1. Scripting. Any changes you make will likely require scripting support. The new abilities suggested do make sense in some cases but I fear that it will take quite a bit of scripting to make them work properly."

to add a few lines so the enemy uses a new spell or ability with a check if the target will be affected (fire res check for fireball...) is not hard to do. everyone can do that.

2. true

3. i am not fond of this, too. they are at a good diff for me as it is now. but to each their own. i would rather like the second part of this revision done. improvements of the other monsters. as it is now, all are just experience potions that needs to be tapped, except bosses like dragons, liches, named bosses.


yaga: i, too, am against an improved spawning rate. but tgm is right about the leutenants. if they appear than with leutenants and soldiers. and they should flee after the death of yaga.




"My suggestion here is to not spawn extra mercs. Sure he would have them but Balthazar always struck me as the Honorable type. IMO the best solution would be for him to have a group that matches yours. In solo games he would fight the PC one-on-one. Against parties he would have 1 companion for each party member. Perhaps the Merc leaders."

sorry, now. this would involve in a)heavy scripting and thus heavy amount of time like it was already done with the rogue rebal or b)cheats and we all know tgm dont like cheats. so i am with tgm here except maybe increase the spawn to two rounds.

Edited by Schatten, 06 June 2004 - 07:18 AM.

[Andyr]

@Andyr:
Rangers are supposed to be good.

Granted.

I personally don't have a problem with it as a class for her, as I assumed her casting abilities could be a result of her blood.

That's one of the reasons I prefer 3E, but I'll try not to make this into a debate!

[T.G.Maestro]

First: topic name changed to "Revision of the Five". I agree to the point that it would better serve as a separate component from other Creature Revisions, but I'd warn you all that we can expect the same amount of arguments and different opinions in the case of Dragons, Demons or Undeads as well, after I post the details..

[quote]1. Scripting. Any changes you make will likely require scripting support. The new abilities suggested do make sense in some cases but I fear that it will take quite a bit of scripting to make them work properly[/quote]
You think I'd start a thread like this without any backup? Of course, we intend to get help in th scripting area, though Littiz isn't bad at all! Simply take a look at the Use Scrolls scripts done by him! I think it is a very superb piece in itself. The only problem is that we (he) are not experienced in battle scripts.
But help is on its way: I hereby announce that the Refinements team will be increased to 3 in the near future, [u]the bigg[/u] will join the work! His part will be the scripts for start. Still, we gladly accept any source of help from anyone who would be willing to help us in the scripting part for these upcoming components!
[quote]2. Compatibility. Not everyone plays with Ascension so you would have to plan for both scenarios or incorporate huge chunks of Ascension into your mod.
[/quote]
I'll be honest. I don't call ToB ToB without Ascension, and I don't intend to do any modifications on the original version. All of our changes will affect the Ascension version of ToB, and my mind is set here. If someone intends to play the pathetic toned-down version, it's not my business.
[quote]3. Difficulty. Not everyone likes tougher battles[/quote]
Solution: don't install the "Revised Five" component then.
[quote]I also worry a *lot* about how these changes would impact the final Ascension battle. [/quote]
Thanks for calling my attention to this one Rathwellin! NOTE: all of these modifications will affect the separate Five-encounters only. We don't intedn to modifiy the final battle at the moment.

[Feanor]

Ehm, I really wouldn't call that an ARMY. 

TG, I suppose you don't expect to see in an RPG the armies from Lord of the Rings movies...

[T.G.Maestro]

Sure not .

[T.G.Maestro]

As requested before here a few ideas on the Refinements modifications of the (improved) Gromnir encounter:

- Gromnir is a 20th level Barbarian, yet he wears a Full Plate. We should either turn him into a berserker, or remove/change his Full Plate +2. I'd vote for turning him into a Berserker, it is more fitting to his general status than a barbarian class. This means we have to change his Barbarian Rages to the berserker Enrage ability, and will have to modify his stats somewhat too.
- He should use some of the following HLAs from the Refinements table: Hardiness, Whirlwind, Greater Whirlwind, Resist Magic, War Cry, Greater War Cry.
- He should have a few potions in his inventory aside healing potions: a potion of Cloud Giant Strength and a Potion of Invulnerability.
- Karun the Black should be an 18th level Illusionist. Time to use that Mirrored Clones HLA, right?
- We should discuss weather or not increase Eler Had's experience to HLa level. Currently he is 15th level, but we could easily turn him into a HLA level Assassin with Nerve Poison or Cripple.
- the same thing goes for Berena Elkan. She is below the HLA level of fighters (15th level fighter). She has her own share of special Bhaal-powers using her spear though.

That is all that comes in mind at first blink. This is a relatively low-level battle compared to the Five encounters, so there are less opportunities to enhance the battle with Refinements powers here.

Any suggestions are welcome though.