still don't see how Imoen being a bhaalspawn is a major plothole, and don't personally like changing backstory that much.
Fix The Plot Holes Mod
Started by Tancred, May 31 2004 07:01 AM
32 replies to this topic
#21
fallen_demon
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Posted 29 June 2004 - 04:22 PM
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#22
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Posted 30 June 2004 - 11:46 AM
Not a plot hole?
She is a Bhaalspawn.
Yet she can be resurrected.
That's not right. Besides, there's quite a few people I've read who thought that making Imoen into a 'Princess Leia figure' was a very contrived plot device.
She is a Bhaalspawn.
Yet she can be resurrected.
That's not right. Besides, there's quite a few people I've read who thought that making Imoen into a 'Princess Leia figure' was a very contrived plot device.
#23
seanas
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Posted 30 June 2004 - 01:59 PM
imoen's resurrection ability isn't a plot hole, it's a plot *device*. a plot device is anything you use to move the plot along: imoen's belt is a plot device, the messengers that turn up out of the blue to tell you about some problem at the keep or whatever, jonnie's escape from spellhold when yr whipping him: these are all plot devices.
it's usually better if such things *arent* cheesy, but just because they're cheesy doesnt make them 'plot holes'. look at any hitchcock movie, for example: he made an art form out of cheesy plot devices - even gave them a name, 'macguffins' - and was completely shameless about using them: and the make his movies stronger. the secret documents (it's microfilm, IIRC) that jimmy stewart is chasing in north by northwest is one of the best examples: not only does the audience never see the documents *the characters* don't either; but the hunt for the macguffin drives jimmy stewart over the edge of mount rushmore.
so: immy's got a belt that stops her dying from anything other than HP loss, and she's resurrectable if she *does* die from HP loss. clunky and inelegant these might be, but they're necessary to drive the plot forward: immy *has* to be alive in Ch3 for the story to continue, so she gets plot devices to make sure she gets there. she loses the belt (shame that
), maybe she could have lost the resurrection ability as well - or maybe not. given that there's *no* other bhaalspawn in SOA that we're in a position to resurrect *anyway* [except maybe viekang mod, when it comes out], what evidence is there, within the narrative, that bhaalspawn can't be resurrected?
sure there's sarevok in TOB, but a: i dont recall ever having trouble resurrecting him (but i dont play TOB through that often, so i could be remembering incorrectly) and b: he keeps coming back to life even *after* you kill him. what leap of disbelief does it require to say if the gods are able to have their fun with sarevok, they can't have the same fun with his sister? melissan brings the 5 back for the final battle in ascension (not original release i know, but intended, if i understand the development of TOB) and *they're all* bhaalspawn.
maybe there's a manual somewhere that says bhaalspawn can't be resurrected, or maybe it's in a salvatore book or something, but *within BG/BGII*, the only bhaalspawn who is definitely NOT resurrectable is the PC. immy's resurrection ability barely even counts as a plot device in BG/BGII; it's certainly *not* a plot hole.
edited for typos :sigh:
it's usually better if such things *arent* cheesy, but just because they're cheesy doesnt make them 'plot holes'. look at any hitchcock movie, for example: he made an art form out of cheesy plot devices - even gave them a name, 'macguffins' - and was completely shameless about using them: and the make his movies stronger. the secret documents (it's microfilm, IIRC) that jimmy stewart is chasing in north by northwest is one of the best examples: not only does the audience never see the documents *the characters* don't either; but the hunt for the macguffin drives jimmy stewart over the edge of mount rushmore.
so: immy's got a belt that stops her dying from anything other than HP loss, and she's resurrectable if she *does* die from HP loss. clunky and inelegant these might be, but they're necessary to drive the plot forward: immy *has* to be alive in Ch3 for the story to continue, so she gets plot devices to make sure she gets there. she loses the belt (shame that
), maybe she could have lost the resurrection ability as well - or maybe not. given that there's *no* other bhaalspawn in SOA that we're in a position to resurrect *anyway* [except maybe viekang mod, when it comes out], what evidence is there, within the narrative, that bhaalspawn can't be resurrected?sure there's sarevok in TOB, but a: i dont recall ever having trouble resurrecting him (but i dont play TOB through that often, so i could be remembering incorrectly) and b: he keeps coming back to life even *after* you kill him. what leap of disbelief does it require to say if the gods are able to have their fun with sarevok, they can't have the same fun with his sister? melissan brings the 5 back for the final battle in ascension (not original release i know, but intended, if i understand the development of TOB) and *they're all* bhaalspawn.
maybe there's a manual somewhere that says bhaalspawn can't be resurrected, or maybe it's in a salvatore book or something, but *within BG/BGII*, the only bhaalspawn who is definitely NOT resurrectable is the PC. immy's resurrection ability barely even counts as a plot device in BG/BGII; it's certainly *not* a plot hole.
edited for typos :sigh:
Edited by seanas, 30 June 2004 - 02:03 PM.
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#24
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Posted 30 June 2004 - 05:33 PM
Ok - lots of stuff to deal with here.
On Imoen being resurrectable as a plot device: the main plot does not require any NPC to be alive after Chapter 1. You can cut Imoen down the minute you rescue her. It won't make any difference to the main story at all. It is not a plot device, IMO.
On Sarevok: When he's killed by you the first time, his Bhaalspawn essence/soul returns to the Throne of Blood. The Sarevok you bring back to life in TOB does not have his own soul; he has a piece of yours, or Imoen's, and as he states, he is no longer a Child of Bhaal. He has no divine essence. He is a normal human being. Hence, having him resurrectable is not a problem.
On the Five: They're not resurrected. Their souls are part of the Throne of Blood, and Melissan controls that. That is why she's able to call them forth - commanding souls in Hell is not resurrection.
Not only does it make sense, from the evidence, that Bhaalspawn cannot have their souls recalled back to their body from death, it also breaks the 'There Can Be Only One' feel of the Bhaalspawn conflict if any Bhaalspawn can just be resurrected.
So if Imoen IS a Bhaalspawn, there's only two ways this can go - either she cannot be resurrected, or if she does she is no longer counts as a Bhaalspawn anyway because her divine essence would have returned to the Throne of Blood. Either way, the contradiction can simply be dealt with by making her a normal human being from the start.
On Imoen being resurrectable as a plot device: the main plot does not require any NPC to be alive after Chapter 1. You can cut Imoen down the minute you rescue her. It won't make any difference to the main story at all. It is not a plot device, IMO.
On Sarevok: When he's killed by you the first time, his Bhaalspawn essence/soul returns to the Throne of Blood. The Sarevok you bring back to life in TOB does not have his own soul; he has a piece of yours, or Imoen's, and as he states, he is no longer a Child of Bhaal. He has no divine essence. He is a normal human being. Hence, having him resurrectable is not a problem.
On the Five: They're not resurrected. Their souls are part of the Throne of Blood, and Melissan controls that. That is why she's able to call them forth - commanding souls in Hell is not resurrection.
Not only does it make sense, from the evidence, that Bhaalspawn cannot have their souls recalled back to their body from death, it also breaks the 'There Can Be Only One' feel of the Bhaalspawn conflict if any Bhaalspawn can just be resurrected.
So if Imoen IS a Bhaalspawn, there's only two ways this can go - either she cannot be resurrected, or if she does she is no longer counts as a Bhaalspawn anyway because her divine essence would have returned to the Throne of Blood. Either way, the contradiction can simply be dealt with by making her a normal human being from the start.
#25
Caswallon
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Posted 01 July 2004 - 02:58 AM
Or by making her non-resurrectable.
(Is that possible, technically?)
As for why Imoen is needed: Irenicus uses her to lure the PC to Spellhold. You are presented two motives to go to Spellhold - to take revenge on Irenicus, or to rescue Imoen. With Imoen out of the way, only the first one stays. Assuming that every PC would side with Bodhi or the thieves, pay 20k gold to just get a revenge on someone who has already been locked away, is a far longer stretch than Immy being Bhaalspawn.
That's only a side issue, though.
I don't really think that Bodhi would be content with just a random mortal soul when her brother gets a divine one. She's not a mere sidekick, but even the more ambitious of the two, as is stated by Johnny (and maybe Ellesime?) somewhere. Their ways have parted with Bodhi's undeath, and Jon tries to ascend to godhead alone, but that doesn't make her less ambitious. We don't know what the two planned after Jon had succeeded in corrupting the Tree of Life.
I concur that the decision to make Imoen a Bhaalspawn does create some inconsistencies. I simply don't think that just writing the Bhaalspawn out of her dialogue makes the story more consistent - that would need a larger re-write.
(Is that possible, technically?)
As for why Imoen is needed: Irenicus uses her to lure the PC to Spellhold. You are presented two motives to go to Spellhold - to take revenge on Irenicus, or to rescue Imoen. With Imoen out of the way, only the first one stays. Assuming that every PC would side with Bodhi or the thieves, pay 20k gold to just get a revenge on someone who has already been locked away, is a far longer stretch than Immy being Bhaalspawn.
That's only a side issue, though.
I don't really think that Bodhi would be content with just a random mortal soul when her brother gets a divine one. She's not a mere sidekick, but even the more ambitious of the two, as is stated by Johnny (and maybe Ellesime?) somewhere. Their ways have parted with Bodhi's undeath, and Jon tries to ascend to godhead alone, but that doesn't make her less ambitious. We don't know what the two planned after Jon had succeeded in corrupting the Tree of Life.
I concur that the decision to make Imoen a Bhaalspawn does create some inconsistencies. I simply don't think that just writing the Bhaalspawn out of her dialogue makes the story more consistent - that would need a larger re-write.
#26
NiGHTMARE
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Posted 01 July 2004 - 11:22 AM
Also, if you make it so Irenicus and Bodhi can use just any old random soul, why should he bother waiting months for the PC to turn up when he can just use a random Spellhold inmate? I say the process definitely requires some sort of divine essence.
#27
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Posted 01 July 2004 - 05:28 PM
As for why Imoen is needed: Irenicus uses her to lure the PC to Spellhold. You are presented two motives to go to Spellhold - to take revenge on Irenicus, or to rescue Imoen.
I know that very well. That's why I said 'the main plot does not require any NPC to be alive after Chapter 1'. Imoen is captured at the end of Chapter 1, yes? So what I said makes perfect sense.
I don't really think that Bodhi would be content with just a random mortal soul when her brother gets a divine one.
She's going to have to be content with a normal soul if there isn't another divine soul available. Bodhi and Irenicus are on a timetable here. Once Irenicus becomes a divinity, he can grant Bodhi pretty much she wants. I don't see why she'd have a real problem with this. Maybe a little chagrin, but no real problem.
Also, if you make it so Irenicus and Bodhi can use just any old random soul, why should he bother waiting months for the PC to turn up when he can just use a random Spellhold inmate?
Easy. You could simply ask why the hell Irenicus needs a soul at all. Answer? Without it, he's unable to link to the Tree of Life at all. He can't simply take an elven soul, it doesn't work like that. He's doing the next best thing - taking a divine soul and using its' power to bond with the Tree forcefully.
IMO, saying stuff like 'I say this' or 'I say that' is irrelevant. Everything and anything can be changed, so any attempt to justify things by quoting the story as it stands now is pointless. What I'm after here are ideas for changes.
I know that very well. That's why I said 'the main plot does not require any NPC to be alive after Chapter 1'. Imoen is captured at the end of Chapter 1, yes? So what I said makes perfect sense.
I don't really think that Bodhi would be content with just a random mortal soul when her brother gets a divine one.
She's going to have to be content with a normal soul if there isn't another divine soul available. Bodhi and Irenicus are on a timetable here. Once Irenicus becomes a divinity, he can grant Bodhi pretty much she wants. I don't see why she'd have a real problem with this. Maybe a little chagrin, but no real problem.
Also, if you make it so Irenicus and Bodhi can use just any old random soul, why should he bother waiting months for the PC to turn up when he can just use a random Spellhold inmate?
Easy. You could simply ask why the hell Irenicus needs a soul at all. Answer? Without it, he's unable to link to the Tree of Life at all. He can't simply take an elven soul, it doesn't work like that. He's doing the next best thing - taking a divine soul and using its' power to bond with the Tree forcefully.
IMO, saying stuff like 'I say this' or 'I say that' is irrelevant. Everything and anything can be changed, so any attempt to justify things by quoting the story as it stands now is pointless. What I'm after here are ideas for changes.
#28
NiGHTMARE
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Posted 02 July 2004 - 12:56 AM
What I was trying to point out was that fixing this "plot hole" (which isn't a plot hole at all IMHO) would actually makes a brand new plot hole. Obviously you can change whatever you want in a mod, but it's rather silly if the mod creates something (i.e. a new plot hole) it was specifically intended to get rid of.
Saying taking an elven soul "doesn't work like that" makes no sense either, since other elves can clearly link to the tree of life without the presence of divinity in their bodies. In fact, once upon a time, when Jon had his own soul, he was quite capable of doing it...
Saying taking an elven soul "doesn't work like that" makes no sense either, since other elves can clearly link to the tree of life without the presence of divinity in their bodies. In fact, once upon a time, when Jon had his own soul, he was quite capable of doing it...
Edited by NiGHTMARE, 02 July 2004 - 01:02 AM.
#29
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Posted 02 July 2004 - 12:19 PM
When I said 'it doesn't work like that', what I referred to were earlier experiments - that would be referred to at some point, I'm sure it can be arranged - of Irenicus' repeated failures to extract an elven soul and implant it into himself. When he finds that attempting to plug himself back into the spirit of nature just will not work, he changes tack and decides to try to use a semi-divine one instead, using the raw power of that soul to force a connection to the Tree - which might explain why it was he needs those large parasite creatures aiding him this time, too.
Heh, that even explains what those things are doing there, too. This is easy!
Heh, that even explains what those things are doing there, too. This is easy!
#30
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Posted 07 July 2004 - 03:08 AM
Immy is a Bhaalspawn. I dislike that bit. A lot.
That's probably the simplest thing to fix ever. All it would take is rewriting dialogs.
Its not so easy. Many mods (most notably Imoen Romance) include important dialogues based on the fact that Immy is a Bhaalspawn. So, a mod changing the main plot would cause more problems than it would solve.(unless you don't want things like ascention) It would be much easier to assume she is a Bhaalspawn and make her non-ressurectable.
#31
cave_troll
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Posted 20 July 2004 - 02:50 AM
Those slavers didn't appear to have any slaves. Shouldn't you accuse them, rathert than just barge in?
#32
Xander77
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Freak Boy
Posted 20 July 2004 - 11:59 AM
Err... the little children are their little friends, and are kept in cages for their own protection from nasty adventurers?Those slavers didn't appear to have any slaves.
Мы должны как раз дать эту хромающую страну к русским. Они awesome! Идет Nader! Кустик и Kerry имеют придурковатые weasels в их кальсонах!
#33
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Posted 20 July 2004 - 09:35 PM
Cave troll meant the slave lords in the Guarded Compound. But the ones organizing it wouldn't really have slaves with them, would they?Err... the little children are their little friends, and are kept in cages for their own protection from nasty adventurers?Those slavers didn't appear to have any slaves.
