32 replies to this topic

[Tancred]

This is just a minor niggle of mine, but it's been a minor niggle for ages. I can't stand the way that you're just shoehorned into the whole Ust Natha section of the storyline, and I wish the writers had given it a little more thought.

SPOILERS
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*

As it is you're just 'recognised' as some people the Drow have been waiting for from another city to conduct a rescue mission. That... seems very unlikely, on the face of it, and perhaps needlessly so.

We already have the fighting pit in the tavern, and perhaps a better plot progression might be this: the party can ask around, pretending to be looking for employment by a House. This would naturally lead them to the answer that Phaere's house (I forget the name) is currently pre-eminent in Ust Natha, but that joining them isn't easy if you're an outsider with no credentials. Some might suggest to try fighting in the pits to see if you get noticed.

If you do go to the pits, one of two things can happen; either you see Lasonar (male duellist) fight and accept his mano-e-mano challenge, or you click on Chalinthra (female duellist) and accidentally spill her drink, leading her to demand satisfaction in a duel. Either way, if you beat one - Lasonar is a loyal skilled fighter in Chalinthra's service - the other is furious and is about to call you out when Solaufein and a Matron arrive, looking for Lasonar and Chalinthra to embark on the rescue mission to save Phaere. Upon seeing that half the team's already been killed, Solaufein is also furious, but the Matron reins him in, and opens the possibility of asking your group to help rescue Phaere. Time is short, there's no time to gather more warriors etc. Some judicious questioning on the part of the PC can reveal that the army of Ust Natha is 'out on maneuvers', a little fact that should fill some NPCs with foreboding.

From there, the plot proceeds as normal, with Phaere adopting the PC and his companions into her house and using them to orchestrate her schemes.

Just a little tweak - it wouldn't take much - and I feel the storyline would hang together much less incredulously. Other situations that could use this work in SOA and especially TOB come to mind, but I'll think on them before posting alternative rewrites - anyone got any pet hates in the plots they think deserve to be ironed out?

[fallen_demon]

how your forced to care if about the sake of saradush. Soa seemed, at least to me, to do a very good job of giving any type of character initutive, but you had to go out of your way to try to save it.

[Cirocco]

One thing that always bothered me at spellhold is all the helpers dying when Jon runs.. (including little girl) .. no matter what you do to try and keep them alive.. for no obvious reason that I can see.

[Grey Acumen]

Indeed. Dili never gets teleported, though she apparently dissapears after that.

As for the Drow thing, is that listed in Unfinished Business? If it was actually intended, they'd probably know.

[Efreet]

1 In the Anomen's quest, if he choses to take revange, as soon as his father's rival is dead, his son teleports away, promising revange. However, I don't think I have seen him anywhere later on.

2 The guarded compound (this is where you can find Celestial Fury) belongs to the Twisted Rune. You can find the "key" to the Rune's headquarters there. However, I have not found any plot-justified reason for the heroes to raid the compound. Did I miss something or is it a plot hole?

It could be connected with the humanskin armour quest. Perhaps, after our adventurers have wrecked the Rune's plans, (killing either or both the tanner and his contact in Umar Hills) the Rune would decide to take action and send some assassins. This would happen after some time, (perhaps after Underdark) and could be either another ambush or a small quest (find the antidote : part IV ). Of course, like all the assassins in BG, these too would have an uncoded letter from their boss on them . The entrance to the compound could also have some protective wards and the letter would contain the password.

3 I have heard many complains about Jan Jansen's quest with "the Hidden". It is the one where players have to run a linear succession of errends around the town and don't even get any hint of logical explanation of what had happened to the girl.

[BobTokyo]

2 The guarded compound (this is where you can find Celestial Fury) belongs to the Twisted Rune. You can find the "key" to the Rune's headquarters there. However, I have not found any plot-justified reason for the heroes to raid the compound. Did I miss something or is it a plot hole?

Nalia's kidnapping gives you a reason to go after them (note indicating the Slaver's Stronghold in the temple district). Also, Baldurdash adds a note linking them to the Slavers in the first free the slaves quest.

[Efreet]

Thank you.

Still, the tanner's quest feels a bit unfinished.
I mean we travel around the neighbourhood, killing Rune's agents and they take no action? Also, during the fight in the tanner's basement dock, the Rune sorcerer mentioned something about some "Great Plan" that must not be interrupted. Was it all about making a magic armour and giving it to the one who brings the final component? Perhaps it could be something more (This armour could be a part of some greater project, maybe the Rune have a hidden lab with cloning vats and they experiment to create some super assassin hybrid or something like that.)

[The Amazing Maurice]

Or it's entirely possible that a lot of the stuff was never even thought up by Bioware

[Alandrea]

Plot holes? In the first game your mother is a friend of Gorions... in TOB she's just some random priestess. My conclusion is that once - a long time ago they were friends but then 'mommy' turned evil (reason anyone?) and worshipped Bhaal. So Gorion went and killed her being the wonderful friend he was and took you away. Now, where is Imoen? She's never even mentioned in all of that. Did Gorion take her too? No, he says he could only save you. Did she follow you and Gorion? Maybe but how old is she? I mean, you've just been born, Sarevok did look to be 8 or so.

Those things bother me the most my next peeve plothole is that Imoen doesn't disintegrate when she dies. The only thing I can think of for this is that Bhaal mated with some goddess who wouldn't want her child to be beyond reserection spawning Imoen but then Imoen would be a goddess herself and then that makes even bigger plotholes and then...

Yeah, well, umm... good luck

[NiGHTMARE]

My guess is the PC's mother turned evil because the taint of her unborn child gradually corrupted her. Either that or the mere act of having sex with an evil god turned her to the dark sidel.

As for Imoen, my personal theory is she's not actually a child of Bhaal, but a grandchild of Bhaal (i.e. her mother or father was a Bhaalspawn, but not Bhaal himself).

Edited by NiGHTMARE, 26 June 2004 - 05:07 PM.

[BobTokyo]

I always hated the way that CHARNAME's mother went from being Gorion's lover (acording to Gorion's final letter to CHARNAME) to a random fanatic in TOB. Even more, I hated the way that this turns Gorion's last words to CHARNAME into a lie. I like the idea that she was corrupted by her pregnancy, but I'd prefer the spin to be that Gorion was still trying to save her when he interrupted the ceremony just a little too late.

Imoenas a grand-Bhaal-spawn works as well. It could also offer a chance to explore the history of the first ten years of her life before Candlekeep, and find out what happened to her unremembered mother.

[Sillara]

Immy is a Bhaalspawn. I dislike that bit. A lot.

Sillara

[Tancred]

Immy is a Bhaalspawn. I dislike that bit. A lot.

That's probably the simplest thing to fix ever. All it would take is rewriting dialogs. Imoen being a Bhaalspawn is redundant as far as the plot goes. Nowhere is it said that Bodhi must have a divine soul; just a soul.

My own position on Alianna/Gorion - that there's a big untold story there - would make me want to reconcile BG1 and TOB on this. But I'm prepared to concede it's needlessly overdramatic; all it would take is a tweak of the revelatory sequence in which you meet your Mother's shade, making her into a Harper and a prisoner-sacrifice at the Temple, rather than a priestess and willing participant. Her story would be told alongside Gorion's rather than opposing it.

e.g.

GORION: I killed the priestess!
ALIANNA: He slew me! Your mother!

would become

GORION: I killed the priestess!
ALIANNA: But too late to save me...

etc, etc. The actual dialog text would have to be looked at, but I refuse to believe there's anything there that would prevent such a rewrite from being smooth enough to pass muster. Even if it's to the extent of having Alianna totally revoiced.

[BobTokyo]

Alternate Path:

GORION: She was so cute.

ALIANNA: He was so funny.

GORION: She had the most wonderful smile.

ALIANNA: He was the gentlest man I?d ever known.

GORION: Her friends were idiots.

ALIANNA: He never respected my spiritual beliefs.

GORION: The place constantly stank of incense. It was a health risk. I tried to be reasonable.

ALIANNA: He spoke to me as if I were a child! He never changed that robe!

GORION: This robe was a gift from my mother!

ALIANNA: It?s ridiculous for a grown man to run around in a dressing gown! Put on some pantaloons!

GORION: Pantaloons! I?m a Mage! I wear a robe! Why don?t you go date a noble if you want some pantaloon wearing fop!

ALIANNA: I should have stayed with Harry!

GORION: Maybe you should have!

ALIANNA: I left him!

GORION: She left me!

ALIANNA: I went back to Harry.

GORION: She went back to that bastard Cleric of Bhaal.

ALIANNA: He understood me. He initiated me into the mysteries.

GORION: They performed dark rituals together. Night after night, hour after hour. You could hear the noise from outside of the damned cave! People complained!

ALIANNA: Harry?s pantaloons were enormous.

GORION: I went to talk things out.

ALIANNA: He killed me! Your mother!

GORION: I was aiming for Harry!

ALIANNA: You always did have a problem with aim!

GORION: It was late! I?d had a lot of wine!

ALIANNA: My mother warned me not to date a man in a gown!

GORION: It?s a robe, not a gown!

(The spirits embrace. Cue Jazz music. Fade screen.)

Edited by BobTokyo, 28 June 2004 - 12:33 PM.

[SConrad]

Alternate Path:

GORION: She was so cute.

ALIANNA: He was so funny.

GORION: She had the most wonderful smile.

ALIANNA: He was the gentlest man I?d ever known.

GORION: Her friends were idiots.

ALIANNA: He never respected my spiritual beliefs.

GORION: The place constantly stank of incense. It was a health risk. I tried to be reasonable.

ALIANNA: He spoke to me as if I were a child! He never changed that robe!

GORION: This robe was a gift from my mother!

ALIANNA: It?s ridiculous for a grown man to run around in a dressing gown! Put on some pantaloons!

GORION: Pantaloons! I?m a Mage! I wear a robe! Why don?t you go date a noble if you want some pantaloon wearing fop!

ALIANNA: I should have stayed with Harry!

GORION: Maybe you should have!

ALIANNA: I left him!

GORION: She left me!

ALIANNA: I went back to Harry.

GORION: She went back to that bastard Cleric of Bhaal.

ALIANNA: He understood me. He initiated me into the mysteries.

GORION: They performed dark rituals together. Night after night, hour after hour. You could hear the noise from outside of the damned cave! People complained!

ALIANNA: Harry?s pantaloons were enormous.

GORION: I went to talk things out.

ALIANNA: He killed me! Your mother!

GORION: I was aiming for Harry!

ALIANNA: You always did have a problem with aim!

GORION: It was late! I?d had a lot of wine!

ALIANNA: My mother warned me not to date a man in a gown!

GORION: It?s a robe, not a gown!

(The spirits embrace. Cue Jazz music. Fade screen.)

Lol!! Exactly my type of humour...

[fallen_demon]

don't remember any plot evidence that says grandbhaalspawn actually get any of the essence, but maybe its mentioned in pnp source I don't know of.

In any case, I whenever i think of the plothole that imoen can be brought back to life, i just think of how annoyed I would get every time she died, than i just keep playing.

[Efreet]

Bohdi needs a divine soul. If she needed just any soul, Irenicus could just pick someone from the street and not spend a couple of months experimenting on Imoen to awaken her "dark side".

[Tancred]

Yeah, as the game stands at the moment - but the key thing to remember about this is that is can be changed. Why was Imoen's soul taken? Easy.

Irenicus' promise to Bodhi was to give her a soul, and that'd be something he could easily do once his plans were complete and he attained divinity. But when he captured a Bhaalspawn, he also captured a number of that Bhaalspawn's companions, and took the opportunity to further refine his extraction process under controlled conditions - in this case, on Khalid and, later, Imoen. Although Khalid was a failure, Irenicus was so successful with Imoen - and Bodhi so insistent - that Irenicus decided taking Imoen's soul while he had so much spare time in Spellhold wasn't such a bad idea. It would both allow him to road-test his process and keep Bodhi's impatience in check.

There we go! Change a few dialogues to fit this new explanation, and bingo.