65 replies to this topic

[T.G.Maestro]

Now you get either way - many of the semi-professional quest/NPC mods carelessly add uber items and gold on every single corner...

[Archmage Silver]

Aye, 'tis true, sadly.

[Togashi Renshi]

Just giving my 2cp of input here. (there are a few spoilers...)
I believe that discharger was right, in that the matriarch Icasaracht was actually much like a Dracolich, in that she destroyed the souls of her young and kept the bodies in stasis should her body ever be destroyed. Her mate was against it, so she killed him (and yet she blames Aihonen...). After Aihonen killed her, his sword prevented her spirit from leaving her corpse, but when the Sea Elf (can't remember her name) removed the sword, her spirit was allowed to leave, then she possesed the recently-buried Wlyfdene (is that spelled right?). Once he/she/it was exposed, her spirit fled to the Sea of Moving Ice and possesed one of the two hatchling bodies that were in stasis. Remember how you had to destroy the other stasis tank which had the hatchling in it? Once the first hatchling's body was destroyed in your battle, she was unable to go to the second body, so she was stuck in her phylactery. Actually, I'm surprised her body was as big as it was.

Wow, that's a bit more than to 2cp, I think...

[T.G.Maestro]

T. G. Maestro - Reading one of your earlier posts made me chuckle: "It was always a joke how one of Faerun's most ancient and powerful race were easily slaughtered by mere 10-15th level parties (both in pnp and at the computer games)."

You are correct here, but don't forget that things work different in computer games based on pnp rules. Much different.
And even if we take into consideration how 'unreachable' those 10-15th levels are, this won't explain the fact that Dragons fall easily (again, this is doubtly so in BG2 and especially in NWN, where you single-handedly defeat 2 adult Dragons...)

I believe that discharger was right, in that the matriarch Icasaracht was actually much like a Dracolich, in that she destroyed the souls of her young and kept the bodies in stasis should her body ever be destroyed.

Yes, and this brings us back to the original question: why is the full-grown size of a White Wyrm (almost the smallest among Dragons) that gigantic? It looks a bit funny compared to the Great Wyrm level Firkraag for example, who is nearly the same size as Icasaracht's baby...

[discharger12]

T. G. Maestro - Reading one of your earlier posts made me chuckle: "It was always a joke how one of Faerun's most ancient and powerful race were easily slaughtered by mere 10-15th level parties (both in pnp and at the computer games)."

You are correct here, but don't forget that things work different in computer games based on pnp rules. Much different.
And even if we take into consideration how 'unreachable' those 10-15th levels are, this won't explain the fact that Dragons fall easily (again, this is doubtly so in BG2 and especially in NWN, where you single-handedly defeat 2 adult Dragons...)

I believe that discharger was right, in that the matriarch Icasaracht was actually much like a Dracolich, in that she destroyed the souls of her young and kept the bodies in stasis should her body ever be destroyed.

Yes, and this brings us back to the original question: why is the full-grown size of a White Wyrm (almost the smallest among Dragons) that gigantic? It looks a bit funny compared to the Great Wyrm level Firkraag for example, who is nearly the same size as Icasaracht's baby...

You really have to consider that it seems impossible for a humanoid to kill something as big as that skeleton in the Matriarchs layer.

Perhaps it is actually bigger then it looks, but simply for space on the screen...

[Togashi Renshi]

Yes, and this brings us back to the original question: why is the full-grown size of a White Wyrm (almost the smallest among Dragons) that gigantic? It looks a bit funny compared to the Great Wyrm level Firkraag for example, who is nearly the same size as Icasaracht's baby...

Ah, I misread the question then; thought it was why was she so small.
Ooh! A thought! Perhaps, since Icasaracht is basically a Dracolich, she used her (possibly existent) necromantic powers to enlarge the body's size or something. Remember, that's basically what Dracoliches have to do when they go into a new body, or they'll be stuck as Proto-Dracoliches.

You really have to consider that it seems impossible for a humanoid to kill something as big as that skeleton in the Matriarchs layer.

Perhaps it is actually bigger then it looks, but simply for space on the screen...

Here's another factor: the height of the cave. Might have something to do with it...

Edited by Togashi Renshi, 31 May 2005 - 10:15 AM.

[discharger12]

Consider in the fact that the Male Wyrm could more then likely sit up in that cave. I don't think the height is the problem.

[Archmage Silver]

Another question, how big Icasaracht must have been if she killed her mate, who was THAT big?

[oralpain]

I can't say I agree with you. I always found the 3rdE changes on Dragons essential, something that must have been implemented in the earlier versions too. It was always a joke how one of Faerun's most ancient and powerful race were easily slaughtered by mere 10-15th level parties (both in pnp and at the computer games).
We had a most interesting discussion about Dragons (and their under/overpoweredness) many months ago, but I just don't have the patience to dig it out.

    I totally disagree. The dragons are supposed to be the most powerful race on the Prime, after all. Some characters and races are just simply overpowered because that is the concept. The dragons are not meant to be sparring-partners for adventurers to get gold and glory. It is very normal for humans-sized races not to stand a chance against a dragon for the same reason as a cat does not stand a chance against a lyon.
    Your argument sounds like you consider that the dragons were put in Toril for the sole purpose of confronting (and being beaten as well) adventuring partys in pnp campaigns. I don't see things the same at all.

My point is that dragons are generally played very poorly. They did not need more power and they can defeat high level parties, as is, in the second edition rules.

In one (by the book) game I was DMing, a party of four characters level 15-25, with 70 men at arms and two stone golems for back up was annnihilated by an old green dragon with 71 hit points.

3E dragons just piled on the hit points, damage, and AC, so that you can challange some groups without having to think in the slightest.

Raw hit points and damage mean very little to nothing. Look at the stats of the 2E tarrasque, then look at the stats of dragons. The Tarrasque is vastly inferor to any dragon of respectable intelegence or experience, even though it can do 5 times the damage and has 5 times as many hit points.

Older dragons are, in the vast majority of cases, the most powerful mortal creatures, without any of the 3E modifications to them. Only very high level wizards or psionicists can hope to rival them.

In the very rare occasions I use dragons, I don't use them for the sole purpose of being beaten by adventuring parties. I also don't put dragons in my game to be stupid animals that need to be statistically absurd to thrive.

Another question, how big Icasaracht must have been if she killed her mate, who was THAT big?

How big would your mate have to be to kill you while you slept?

[Togashi Renshi]

Not so big.

[Archmage Silver]

O_o Icasaracht is a sneaky Gollum!

[T.G.Maestro]

Older dragons are, in the vast majority of cases, the most powerful mortal creatures, without any of the 3E modifications to them. Only very high level wizards or psionicists can hope to rival them.

In the very rare occasions I use dragons, I don't use them for the sole purpose of being beaten by adventuring parties. I also don't put dragons in my game to be stupid animals that need to be statistically absurd to thrive.

oralpain, the problem is that while this works well in pnp, it just won't translate very well in these computer games.

[oralpain]

Yeah, I agreed with that already.

CRPGs need to get some better AI and worlds that can be interacted with in more detail.

[T.G.Maestro]

CRPGs need to get some better AI

Sadly enough, AI isn't everything. First of all, it will never be as innovative as a human player, and besides, since we cannot add more complex abilities (like flying, which -in case of a Dragon- would be enough to make the creature challanging to 20th level parties) in the IE engine, we have a most limited selection of tools if we talk about improving opponents without cheesy methods. :closedeyes:

OTOH, I still find it miserably flawed that the creators released a version where a creature like a Dragon only had 71 HPs...
All in all, I think the 3rdE versions have much more believeable and fair stats than the previous versions of Dragons.

Edited by T.G.Maestro, 02 June 2005 - 03:21 AM.

[Togashi Renshi]

it will never be as innovative as a human player

then again, what if it started to get more innovative and take over the world and put all human beings into little pink capsules to feed off our energy?

...wow, that thought went out of control.

Edited by Togashi Renshi, 02 June 2005 - 04:10 AM.

[T.G.Maestro]

then again, what if it started to get more innovative and take over the world and put all human beings into little pink capsules to feed off our energy?

...wow, that thought went out of control.

Ehmm...
yeh.

Now back to topic.

[oralpain]

CRPGs need to get some better AI

Sadly enough, AI isn't everything. First of all, it will never be as innovative as a human player, and besides, since we cannot add more complex abilities (like flying, which -in case of a Dragon- would be enough to make the creature challanging to 20th level parties) in the IE engine, we have a most limited selection of tools if we talk about improving opponents without cheesy methods. :closedeyes:

Yeah, I know. The IE hadly has AI at all, just funky scripts.

No telling how future games will turn out AI wise however.

OTOH, I still find it miserably flawed that the creators released a version where a creature like a Dragon only had 71 HPs...
All in all, I think the 3rdE versions have much more believeable and fair stats than the previous versions of Dragons.

Well, the average human (0-level) in 1st or 2nd edtion typically had 3-4 hit points, an ogre 14 or so, a Hill giant 53, ect. Typical damage done and chances to get a good strike in fit these figures well. 71 hit points is quite respectable, even though it is a bit below average (17d8 hit dice, 77hp average) for a green dragon of that age.

If you want toget nitpicky about the plausibility of hitpoints in relation to size, for dragons, consider that a 2nd edtition dragon often has more hit points per unit of volume than 3rd edition dragons. When you double the length, you increase the volume by eight times, if proportions remain the same. If you go by Lockwood's art, 3e dragons are stockier, wich means even more volume.

Guess it's all a matter of opinion and how you feel dragons should be portrayed. In my game, mature dragons are rare, powerful, and worthly of respect, but not just beacuse of thier immense size and physical abilities. They are even more feared (among people who know anything of them) for their great cunning and centuries of experience.

I did however make a few changes that did effect dragons (though not neccisarrily becasue of dragons), in my game. I removed the large damage listing for all weapons, as I could never really justify it with anything coming close to good logic. Also, I cut the total length of all dragons in half (and hence volume eight fold, wich is nearly the opposite of what 3rd edition did). This was more justifiable to me than inflating the hit dice. It also had the effect of allowing the older dragons to actually fit inside many places they could not before. They are still plenty large enough to be intimidating. I never liked the idea of godzilla sized dragons with no hope for stealth.

Any way, about IWD... Officially, great wyrm white dragons have a body 95-104 feet long and a tail 85-94 feet long. The large dragon corpse in IWD is probbaly a bit closer to this than the dragon animation.

[Archmage Silver]

A bit off-topic - In the newer Dragonlance novels there exist the super-sized dragons from another world... I don't know if they appear in any pnp, but wouldn't that be quite overpowering, no matter what edition we're talking about?