Two different genres really. IMO Thief 2 is more atmospheric and handles the stealth aspect better than SPC, the latter is undoubtably stylish however, but is weaker due to the 3rd person aspect. Though Thief 3 is going to be 3rd person.
Games comparable to Torment
Started by The Amazing Maurice, May 11 2004 02:58 AM
68 replies to this topic
#21
The Amazing Maurice
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Posted 14 May 2004 - 04:08 AM
#22
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Posted 14 May 2004 - 05:05 AM
I've seen screenshots for SC3, I can tell ya it looks amazing. Splinter Cell 1 and 2 were linear, but the story makes up for it. The thing I didn't like about MGS was it had "bosses." Splinter Cell has hard to kill enemies, but only because you don't have UBER health, and the fact that you have to STAY hidden, etc. Killing Nikoladze at the end of SC was damned hard, shooting him through that window, but it wasn't annoyingly hard, which was good.
Really, the games that are top of their genre can compare to PST. Well, except sports games or multiplayer games, they are nothing like Planescape Torment. Games with stories are only what you can compare to PST. Half-Life had a rich story going on, especially since the Gman who you have to work for at the end (gives you a "work for me or die" choice) is not even human. I love his voice... Ssssssss.
But, yeah. My point is that no matter how different Half-Life is to Torment, they are both as good as each other, for different reasons. I'm talking about all other games here as well. Torment is the pinnacle of RPG, probably. Grim Fandango or Monkey Island are the pinnacle of Adventure, etc etc.
Really, the games that are top of their genre can compare to PST. Well, except sports games or multiplayer games, they are nothing like Planescape Torment. Games with stories are only what you can compare to PST. Half-Life had a rich story going on, especially since the Gman who you have to work for at the end (gives you a "work for me or die" choice) is not even human. I love his voice... Ssssssss.
But, yeah. My point is that no matter how different Half-Life is to Torment, they are both as good as each other, for different reasons. I'm talking about all other games here as well. Torment is the pinnacle of RPG, probably. Grim Fandango or Monkey Island are the pinnacle of Adventure, etc etc.
#23
The Amazing Maurice
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Posted 14 May 2004 - 05:42 AM
But would you not agree that the market has become more shallow recently? For example, classics like Planescape, Baldurs Gate, Grim Fadango even Half-Life (if were talking FPS's as well) seem to be replaced with stuff like Dark Alliance, Mace Griffen, Hunter the Recokoning etc. Sure you get the odd game that blows you away such as Halo, KotOR, GTA etc, but the orginality seems to be drying up.
My point being PST was probably the most original gaming experience of recent history, a game which lets face is easy enough to complete - but you don't care about that because the storyline is so rich and the writing so good. There will never be a game like it again, because in general the industry is losing the will to be creative.
Look at Blinx: The Time Sweeper. A original idea, while not perfect, was still something that had never been tried before and that had *very* poor sales.
IMO the demise of Interplay is only going to convice the production companies to stick to tried and tested formulas.
My point being PST was probably the most original gaming experience of recent history, a game which lets face is easy enough to complete - but you don't care about that because the storyline is so rich and the writing so good. There will never be a game like it again, because in general the industry is losing the will to be creative.
Look at Blinx: The Time Sweeper. A original idea, while not perfect, was still something that had never been tried before and that had *very* poor sales.
IMO the demise of Interplay is only going to convice the production companies to stick to tried and tested formulas.
#24
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Posted 14 May 2004 - 07:00 AM
I think there are more factors, a game like Planescape Torment takes alot of time and resources to make, and when bigger and bigger part of the market is people play counterstrike, Starcraft and Diablo 2 still and claim them to be best games ever, if things get to complicated they get anther game. this group is also increasing alot last years since computers been made much more "common" among the normal living persons home, 5 years past half of todays online gamers probablly would have thought that a computer was to difficult and something super geeky.
Also when spending so much resources on story and character development, you dont have time to do graphics, wich is 50% of game sales nowadays (if you dont belive me, then look at UT2K4, its got some minor details and graphics, basically all changes from UT2K3, wich was mainlly graphic update from UT2K2 and so on...).
Also the lack of technology to make RPG's better, namelly the pretty much imposible NPC AI, we need a almost working independent AI to get games to go past the level of PST, unfortunatelly we dont have it available
And of corse publishers pushing often ruin many a good game (Temple of elemental evil for example).
and as you said, when someone actually do make such a great game... it doesnt sell... its anoying, PST is the best RPG ever, i love that game. i looked for years to find a original copy of it here in norway. And i almost dont dare touch the box in case i should make a rift or break it somehow. it so beautifull....
And what do we get ? Morrowind.. FPS RPG .. ugh... ill just go back play Baldurs Gate 1 and Torment again ...
</rant> out.
Also when spending so much resources on story and character development, you dont have time to do graphics, wich is 50% of game sales nowadays (if you dont belive me, then look at UT2K4, its got some minor details and graphics, basically all changes from UT2K3, wich was mainlly graphic update from UT2K2 and so on...).
Also the lack of technology to make RPG's better, namelly the pretty much imposible NPC AI, we need a almost working independent AI to get games to go past the level of PST, unfortunatelly we dont have it available
And of corse publishers pushing often ruin many a good game (Temple of elemental evil for example).
and as you said, when someone actually do make such a great game... it doesnt sell... its anoying, PST is the best RPG ever, i love that game. i looked for years to find a original copy of it here in norway. And i almost dont dare touch the box in case i should make a rift or break it somehow. it so beautifull....
And what do we get ? Morrowind.. FPS RPG .. ugh... ill just go back play Baldurs Gate 1 and Torment again ...
</rant> out.
#25
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Posted 14 May 2004 - 07:16 AM
Torment is original, that's your opinion and I respect it, I suppose. I just felt that Half-Life, Grim Fandango, etc, while COMPLETELY different, telling stories totally unlike Planescape, they're still just as good. Half-Life just got the recognition it deserved. Grim Fandango and Planescape: Torment didn't, but it doesn't really mean they're any better. Planescape makes you ponder questions, and it makes you like it more because you don't FIND the answer, it's up to your interpretation.
It's like Monkey Island 2, at the end of that Guybrush gets knocked out, and LeChuck had said that he's his brother, and the end is Guybrush meeting his parents with his brother Chuckie who, when the others leave the screen, looks at the camera and his eyes glow all lightningy, and you still see Elaine wondering where Guybrush is. THAT raised the question of whether Guybrush was a little boy in a theme park dreaming everything, or whether he actually WAS a pirate in the Caribbean (with a few kooky jokes around).
I suppose that a good game is one that gives you something to ponder after you've finished it. For Half-Life there was "Who is the Gman? Is he alien or human?" and now there's "Have the aliens taken over Earth?" or "Is the Xen race extinct?", for Planescape there's "Who is the Nameless One?" and "What can change the nature of a man?" though that one's up to interpretation really. Grim Fandango was tied up nicely, but you wonder what Glottis is up to now, since he and Manny were close friends, and Manny's gone on to the proper afterlife now with Meche (I think that's her name), whereas Glottis hasn't.
I dunno what my point is, saying this, but it sounded good at the time.
It's like Monkey Island 2, at the end of that Guybrush gets knocked out, and LeChuck had said that he's his brother, and the end is Guybrush meeting his parents with his brother Chuckie who, when the others leave the screen, looks at the camera and his eyes glow all lightningy, and you still see Elaine wondering where Guybrush is. THAT raised the question of whether Guybrush was a little boy in a theme park dreaming everything, or whether he actually WAS a pirate in the Caribbean (with a few kooky jokes around).
I suppose that a good game is one that gives you something to ponder after you've finished it. For Half-Life there was "Who is the Gman? Is he alien or human?" and now there's "Have the aliens taken over Earth?" or "Is the Xen race extinct?", for Planescape there's "Who is the Nameless One?" and "What can change the nature of a man?" though that one's up to interpretation really. Grim Fandango was tied up nicely, but you wonder what Glottis is up to now, since he and Manny were close friends, and Manny's gone on to the proper afterlife now with Meche (I think that's her name), whereas Glottis hasn't.
I dunno what my point is, saying this, but it sounded good at the time.
#26
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Posted 14 May 2004 - 07:28 AM
There's mysteries in these games, mysteries are what make you want to go back for more. Mysteries make you play the game over and over again to find the answers to it. The first time I had no idea who TNO was, but now I think he may have started the Blood War. The first time I had no idea who the Gman was, but Nihilanth pretty much confirms he's an alien. But why is he using you?
I think THAT was my point.
I think THAT was my point.
#27
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Posted 14 May 2004 - 07:37 AM
Actually, it's going to be both 1st and 3rd person; you get to chose which viewpoint you want to use (in the PC version anyway. The X-Box version may well force 3rd person on you).Two different genres really. IMO Thief 2 is more atmospheric and handles the stealth aspect better than SPC, the latter is undoubtably stylish however, but is weaker due to the 3rd person aspect. Though Thief 3 is going to be 3rd person.
#28
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Posted 14 May 2004 - 09:47 AM
While I agree that Morrowind can't really compete with PS:T in character depth, I simply have to chime in here (hasn't much to do with MW, actually):And what do we get ? Morrowind.. FPS RPG .. ugh... ill just go back play Baldurs Gate 1 and Torment again ...
I dare say there are more roleplaying games employing first person perspective than ones using isometric view like the Infinity Engine. Quite a lot of long-standing RPG series fall into that category - Eye of the Beholder, Lands of Lore, Might&Magic, Wizardry, Elder Scrolls, Ultima Underworld, and whatnot.
First person perspective is neither new, nor has it been invented by shooter games.
#29
Xaositect_Crayon
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Posted 14 May 2004 - 02:42 PM
besides... most people hear rpg they think of Final fantasy...
well... there are small groups like us that will suport good games with shitty graphics.. right everyone? *looks around in a stern matter*
graphical cutbacks take ALOT out of a game's pricing too... mayhap we can get a company to make the perverbial serious sam of the RPG market... (not litterally of course, say, good cheap games whos graphics are... not as great but still good. Say a graphics engine that can still run on 600 mhz with 64-128 ram, and more room for dungeon/character/story design ect....)
well... there are small groups like us that will suport good games with shitty graphics.. right everyone? *looks around in a stern matter*
graphical cutbacks take ALOT out of a game's pricing too... mayhap we can get a company to make the perverbial serious sam of the RPG market... (not litterally of course, say, good cheap games whos graphics are... not as great but still good. Say a graphics engine that can still run on 600 mhz with 64-128 ram, and more room for dungeon/character/story design ect....)
Crayons are the most chaotic bananas there never will be....
#30
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Posted 14 May 2004 - 05:56 PM
Being mostly confined to the house I've played a lottttt 
of RPG's over the years, other types of games as well, but since the question was about games that compare with Torment I'll stick with games that are mentaly as well as graphicaly immersive, so in no particualr order.
Fallout 1/2 (mostly the ability to make choices)
Deus Ex (quite a few flaws, but then what doesn't have )
Ultima Underworld I/II and Ultima 7 parts I & II (not so much choice, but very very immersive, though had doubts about putting this in as it might date me a bit.. till I realised I could just say I played them in the Collection that was released and didn't in any way play them when they where first came out
)
But I can't think of any other RPG that really come close to Torment in giving you so many multiple roots to follow/allowing such freedom of roleplay, for that (at the moment) you have to drop the graphics altogether and try a good MUD or a P&P game.
of RPG's over the years, other types of games as well, but since the question was about games that compare with Torment I'll stick with games that are mentaly as well as graphicaly immersive, so in no particualr order.Fallout 1/2 (mostly the ability to make choices)
Deus Ex (quite a few flaws, but then what doesn't have
)Ultima Underworld I/II and Ultima 7 parts I & II (not so much choice, but very very immersive, though had doubts about putting this in as it might date me a bit.. till I realised I could just say I played them in the Collection that was released and didn't in any way play them when they where first came out
)But I can't think of any other RPG that really come close to Torment in giving you so many multiple roots to follow/allowing such freedom of roleplay, for that (at the moment) you have to drop the graphics altogether and try a good MUD or a P&P game.
#31
The Amazing Maurice
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Posted 14 May 2004 - 06:00 PM
I think one of the main reasons HL got the recognition is because it was an FPS, a far more accesable genre for the masses. That's no bad thing however and in it's time it easily was the finest example of the genre, but now it has been surpassed. Halo, Deus-Ex, Wolfenstien are IMO better games (Halo in particular).Torment is original, that's your opinion and I respect it, I suppose. I just felt that Half-Life, Grim Fandango, etc, while COMPLETELY different, telling stories totally unlike Planescape, they're still just as good. Half-Life just got the recognition it deserved. Grim Fandango and Planescape: Torment didn't, but it doesn't really mean they're any better. Planescape makes you ponder questions, and it makes you like it more because you don't FIND the answer, it's up to your interpretation.
It's like Monkey Island 2, at the end of that Guybrush gets knocked out, and LeChuck had said that he's his brother, and the end is Guybrush meeting his parents with his brother Chuckie who, when the others leave the screen, looks at the camera and his eyes glow all lightningy, and you still see Elaine wondering where Guybrush is. THAT raised the question of whether Guybrush was a little boy in a theme park dreaming everything, or whether he actually WAS a pirate in the Caribbean (with a few kooky jokes around).
I suppose that a good game is one that gives you something to ponder after you've finished it. For Half-Life there was "Who is the Gman? Is he alien or human?" and now there's "Have the aliens taken over Earth?" or "Is the Xen race extinct?", for Planescape there's "Who is the Nameless One?" and "What can change the nature of a man?" though that one's up to interpretation really. Grim Fandango was tied up nicely, but you wonder what Glottis is up to now, since he and Manny were close friends, and Manny's gone on to the proper afterlife now with Meche (I think that's her name), whereas Glottis hasn't.
I dunno what my point is, saying this, but it sounded good at the time.
PST however can still stake a claim to being the finest example of it's genre, even after 5 years.
I can't comment on Grim Fandango as I've never played it. Though I've heard very good things.
But you can't really compare which is the better gaming experience.
#32
raptor
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Posted 15 May 2004 - 04:56 AM
Caswallon: I know, but i still dont like it
Played a bit of lands of lore and some Eye of the beholder myself, but the "fps" technology was rather limited at that time, and the 90 degrees turning in the above mentioned games was quite amusing. iirc Menzoberanzan and Lands of lore 2 was among the very first RPGs using FPS in the term of at least 360 degrees turning around, and they suffered bad from it (still pretty funy games though).
RPG's using FPS engines just have a bad habbit of beeing more... graphically or shiiting oriented than others, hacking a sword with the mouse buttons in FPS just isnt really all that interesting... i couldnt stand daggerfall, it just got anoying after few minutes playing, Morrowind suffers of the same just more in my eyes.
uh oh.. im ranting again .... pardon me, just ignore.
Fallout are the games i can say comes closest to Planescape torment, baldurs gate to some extent, but they are still not even near.
Played a bit of lands of lore and some Eye of the beholder myself, but the "fps" technology was rather limited at that time, and the 90 degrees turning in the above mentioned games was quite amusing. iirc Menzoberanzan and Lands of lore 2 was among the very first RPGs using FPS in the term of at least 360 degrees turning around, and they suffered bad from it (still pretty funy games though).
RPG's using FPS engines just have a bad habbit of beeing more... graphically or shiiting oriented than others, hacking a sword with the mouse buttons in FPS just isnt really all that interesting... i couldnt stand daggerfall, it just got anoying after few minutes playing, Morrowind suffers of the same just more in my eyes.
uh oh.. im ranting again .... pardon me, just ignore.
Fallout are the games i can say comes closest to Planescape torment, baldurs gate to some extent, but they are still not even near.
#33
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Posted 19 May 2004 - 02:28 PM
Well, so can HL (6 years)PST however can still stake a claim to being the finest example of it's genre, even after 5 years.
Hey, I never knew that. Half-Life was made in 1998 and PST was made in 1999. Interesting.
#34
Galactygon
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Posted 19 May 2004 - 02:59 PM
However, the majority sadly wouldn't have the same opinion. If it would be otherwise, the market would be flooded with PS:T games.PST however can still stake a claim to being the finest example of it's genre, even after 5 years.
That's why modders seem to make a better job creating/modifying a game than the actual companies. While companies go for mostly the money, modders go for the entertainment and passion.
-Galactygon
#35
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Posted 19 May 2004 - 04:48 PM
Oh, yes, and then the MAIN question: "Why does super-smart villain Irenicus got interested in the absolutely senseless scheme of luring PC into Spellhold if Bodhi could abduct him any day just as before and deliver to Spellhold bound hand and foot?" And the whole Imoen subplot is...erm...bad.I think the whole plot of BG2 is flawed. I mean you can probably excuse not rescuing Imoen for 75% of the game if your playing evil, but after your out of spellhold it becomes silly to do anything apart from go after Irenicus. If your playing good, for the plot to make sense you would have to forgoe 75% of the game.The linear thingy is also a problem in Baldurs Gate 2, where after you go to spellhold it becomes VERY linear. yet it is still hailed as one of the best rpg's in recent years. Linearity isnt bad IMHO, but its a big dent in replay value.
(come to think of it, i have only finished BG2 once, tried 5 or 6 more times but the moment i go to spellhold it just get so boring
btw: i loved Lands of Lore 1, 90degrees was funny, but i wouldnt call it a optimal RPG solution, Infinity engine and TOEE are the ones i have liked the best thus far.
#36
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Posted 20 May 2004 - 01:34 AM
Without a doubt id have to say The elder scrolls games , due to the deep interweaving plots what it lack in npcs(which is no loss in the style) it makes up for in story and lore , well written books that tell the history of the land and the background of charichters much like in pst where this is the main plot pice
ala morrowind and finding out the history or the dunmer and who you are
ala morrowind and finding out the history or the dunmer and who you are
#37
The Amazing Maurice
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Posted 20 May 2004 - 02:48 AM
I admire what Morrowind was trying to do, and I played it through till the end but I couldn't help feel there was something... lacking. It seemed hollow.Without a doubt id have to say The elder scrolls games , due to the deep interweaving plots what it lack in npcs(which is no loss in the style) it makes up for in story and lore , well written books that tell the history of the land and the background of charichters much like in pst where this is the main plot pice
ala morrowind and finding out the history or the dunmer and who you are
But then having the big bad boss looking like a giant sunflower didn't help
#38
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Posted 20 May 2004 - 03:06 AM
lol most of my morrowind games on well after defeating dagoth uhr 
mainly reading and colecting things books and so ive played the game since it was released and modded it since then two and i still find new things rarely a new quest anymore but new books and trinkets to add to my colection eheh its the magic of discovery which captivates me with morrowind and the endless ways to complete certain things i mean alot of people dont even know theres an alternat way to do the main quest as in PST its the options i like and sheer depth
but then im a hughe elder scrolls fan have been since arena
mainly reading and colecting things books and so ive played the game since it was released and modded it since then two and i still find new things rarely a new quest anymore but new books and trinkets to add to my colection eheh its the magic of discovery which captivates me with morrowind and the endless ways to complete certain things i mean alot of people dont even know theres an alternat way to do the main quest as in PST its the options i like and sheer depth
but then im a hughe elder scrolls fan have been since arena
#39
Dalis'ilhea
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Posted 21 May 2004 - 02:46 AM
My views go with the "there will never be a comparison" after I played it and finished it I hated Black Isles for what they put the Namless One through and it isn't a happy ending no matter what you try I mean the simplest solution would have been "right I'm here to find out things now I've found out who I was in previous lives I want to go home with my friends" but when you try that option your motality says yes you will leave after I kill you 
I've also got to say that I believe that the reason that it didn't sell well is becasue the general public is stupid and unthinking I mean Diablo II is fun to play, but only if you don't want to be force to think, Torment forces you to think in different paths to those that you normally do No offense to Half-life either I like I've played it and I want half-life 2 but the reason that it sold is because how much thought does it require to shoot something or use a switch or lever or something, the puzzles are much simpler and obvious, and there's less reading in fp games
I mean the simplest solution would have been "right I'm here to find out things now I've found out who I was in previous lives I want to go home with my friends" but when you try that option your motality says yes you will leave after I kill you I've also got to say that I believe that the reason that it didn't sell well is becasue the general public is stupid and unthinking I mean Diablo II is fun to play, but only if you don't want to be force to think, Torment forces you to think in different paths to those that you normally do No offense to Half-life either I like I've played it and I want half-life 2 but the reason that it sold is because how much thought does it require to shoot something or use a switch or lever or something, the puzzles are much simpler and obvious, and there's less reading in fp games
Edited by Dalis'ilhea, 21 May 2004 - 02:57 AM.
I apparently have a high level of empathy, combined with a low level of sympathy... weird
In the wake of destruction progress is made
I am who I am, and none shall change me
In the wake of destruction progress is made
I am who I am, and none shall change me
#40
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Posted 21 May 2004 - 03:11 AM
must agree with the public being filled with idiots but i must disagree about half life /2 wonderfull story very b.movie camp
Diablo is slaughterfest its lick clickomania with an rpg shell
but in the end of pst the namelss one can have a sort of happy ending
