92 replies to this topic

[The Amazing Maurice]

That's one of the reasons why I love this game. It dosn't hand all the answers to you on a plate, it makes you think about the issues it raises. Some of the answers like the one we've been discussing are never explained and will never be - and it makes it all the better experience for it.

[The Amazing Maurice]

The local lore masters will likely shoot this idea down immediately since it's probably way wrong, but is it possible that TNO had a hand in starting the Blood War? That might fit the bill as being so horrendous that not only do the planes still suffer for it, but TNO himself is damned to fight in it (eternally?).

I've heard that theory before. Seems plausible but then I'm not a D&D expert and there is probably enough facts in the D&D canon to shoot it down.

[Longinus]

Whatever the original incarnation of the Nameless One was guilty of, Ravel knew. She couldn't understand how someone so evil could change so drastically. Her pursuit for an answer to why he changed was one of the reasons for her own downfall. It became an obssession for her.

Planescape: Torment was an awesome RPG indeed, and it's a great shame that we may never see another RPG like it. Do any of the people who developed the game still work for Interplay? I was thinking about buying Dark Alliance 2 just because it was made by Black Isle.

[The Amazing Maurice]

Whatever the original incarnation of the Nameless One was guilty of, Ravel knew. She couldn't understand how someone so evil could change so drastically. Her pursuit for an answer to why he changed was one of the reasons for her own downfall. It became an obssession for her.

Planescape: Torment was an awesome RPG indeed, and it's a great shame that we may never see another RPG like it. Do any of the people who developed the game still work for Interplay? I was thinking about buying Dark Alliance 2 just because it was made by Black Isle.

Hence the "What Can Change The Nature Of A Man" question.

No the team has long since disbanded. Black Isle is no more and it looks Interplay is going bust to. That's what happens when you churn out crap like Dark Alliance - though that probably would have sold about twice as much as PST.
The good news is most of the Planescape team has reformed under the new name "Obsidian" who are developing KotOR 2. I have high hopes for this.

[The Amazing Maurice]

When I read through the game, I thought that The Nameless One had a hand in starting the Blood War, because no normal war is so horrendous that you get sent to fight there for the rest of your life and unlife. It's really the only thing I could think of. I mean, if he started that war, it's only natural that he has to fight in it to the end.

Like I say possible - The planes are slowly dying because of the original's crime. Having a hand in the blood war would certainly fit the statement "that life, that one life, even *without* the thousands of others, has given a seat in the Lower Planes for eternity."
We know that Morte's lies resulted in TNO's death and a contract was signed with the fiends. Maybe there's something in this...

[The Amazing Maurice]

I'm sure I came to a conclusion that Morte had a daughter when he was alive, and that the Nameless One saved Morte is some way and may have been involved with Morte's daughter... I can't remember where I got that from now though, maybe one of Ravel's dialogues?

About the planes dying thing, that could also be interpreted by the way that when TNO dies, death takes someone else's life instead because TNO has no mortality, and since TNO has been alive for a VERY long time, I presume, it is probably enough for someone to say the planes have been dying. It's like saying a CITY is dying from a plague, the actual CITY isn't dying, it's referring to the people in it.

Maybe the 'contract' signed lead to a huge victory for one of the forces of hell, because it is said that the Blood War is what keeps the planes together isn't it? So if TNO was treacherous to one of them, then one of them may win the war, demons or devils - whatever, it doesn't matter about those details, just that TNO has signed a contract which has damned him for eternity.

Then if TNO has to fight for that losing side, it may be enough to balance out the planes again, since if he, say, gave the devils the secrets of the demons, he can tell the demons what secrets he gave, and it'd be back at square one.

Bah, I dunno, it's just a wild theory by someone who knows next to nothing about D&D.

I don't know about Morte having a daughter, there is nothing in Ravel's dialouges to suggest that. Are you sure that's not Iannis? When Morte was alive he lied about something which killed TNO and sent him to the pillar of skulls. Maybe something to do with the blood war there? There is meniton of an advisor... Maybe Morte was TNO's advisor when he was alive & TNO was mortal. What if Morte got TNO sent to the Blood War by lying about something - when TNO was there he bore witness to the horror's that he had created, something that might have been enough to regret what he had done and repent. After all the original incarnation said that *regret* could change the nature of a man.

[The Amazing Maurice]

Upon questioning Morte about being his Baatorian smell...

"Eh..." Morte goes silent for a moment. "Yeah, you're right; it's not funny at all. You see, I think I knew a lot of things when I was alive. And maybe when I did know something, I didn't always tell the truth about it. I'm thinking that when I bent the truth once or twice, I may have led to someone getting penned in the dead-book sooner than they should have."

"It was me, wasn't it?"

Morte looks at you for a moment. "Yeah. I can't say *how* I know it, chief, but I think so. I think you were the one that got me sent there; the last twig in the bundle before the whole load snaps. Thing is, I can't remember what happened - I don't even remember being human, or what my life was even like before I woke up on the Pillar."

Upon questioning Morte on why he has been with you for such a long time

"Well, of course not, chief, but I-" And suddenly, his tone of voice strikes a chord in you, and you know *why* he's remained with you, all this time.

"You feel *guilty.* Because you led me to my death so long ago, isn't it? And you've been suffering ever since."

"Aw, c'mon, chief. Me, feel *guilty?* I'm Morte."

"No, I think that's it. When I came to free you from the fate you deserved, you couldn't *help* but try and help me. And when you could have left after I freed you, you remained. Because you felt indebted."

Morte is silent for a moment, looking at you. "Maybe. You know what's funny? At first, I don't know what the feeling was - it kind of slowly eats at you, y'know?""I mean, at first I thought it was a side-effect of some enchantment that 'bound' me to you... but after a couple hundred years, I realized it was *more* than that... something deeper. I just felt drawn, *connected* to you, somehow. Maybe it's all your suffering, chief... your torment. I don't know. Maybe I felt... I don't know, *responsible* for whatever it is I did. What if something I did brought you to this state?"

"Thing is, I don't think me - or whoever I was - really ever had to *see* the consequences of all the lying and cheating I'd done, and when I saw you for the first time when I was trapped on the Pillar, somehow, I *knew* that you were the one I'd betrayed. Once... long ago." Morte sighs. "And that's all I know."

[MagusWizardo]

I was looking through the dialouges with the 3rd Incarnation and found something that I hadn't noticed before - TNO went to find Ravel out wanting to repent his sins, not just being afraid of death...

3rd Inc - "Because if we die, *truly* die..." The incarnation looks up at you, and his eyes are like steel. "Death's kingdom will *not* be paradise, not for us. If you spoke to these others that were here, know that a fraction of the evil of their lives is but a drop of water compared to the evil of mine. That life, that one life, even *without* the thousands of others, has given a seat in the Lower Planes for eternity."

TNO - "But you seem so much... calmer. More well-intentioned."

3rd Inc - "I became that way, yes. Because for me..." His voice takes on a strange echo. "It is *regret* that may change the nature of a man." He sighs. "But it was too late. I was already damned."

3rd Inc - "I found that changing my nature was not enough. I needed more time, and I needed more life. So I came to the greatest of the Gray Sisters and asked her for a boon - to try and help me live long enough to rectify all the damage I had done. To make me immortal."

I think that that was infact the first incarnation - the 'good' incarnation.

"I found that changing my nature was not enough. I needed more time, and I needed more life. So I came to the greatest of the Gray Sisters and asked her for a boon - to try and help me live long enough to rectify all the damage I had done. To make me immortal"

"And Ravel did. And it worked, but when you died you forgot *everything* - even your own name"

[The Amazing Maurice]

Yes it is. I wrote 3rd Incarnation as it his name in IE.

[Longinus]

If the Nameless One isn't intelligent and wise enough, he won't realise who the good incarnation actually is. I didn't realise it on my first trip through the game. The good incarnation never strikes you as being your first incarnation by virtue of his kind nature. I suppose that's the whole point.

[The Amazing Maurice]

If the Nameless One isn't intelligent and wise enough, he won't realise who the good incarnation actually is. I didn't realise it on my first trip through the game. The good incarnation never strikes you as being your first incarnation by virtue of his kind nature. I suppose that's the whole point.

Yeah I did to, and the bronze sphere. Whenever I play now, I always just plug points into INT, WIS & CHA - There's not actually that many times during the game when you *have* to fight.

[Platter]

"We intended that the Nameless One's real, true, first name would never be revealed in the game, since anyone playing the game could imagine a much better name than any dumb name we could come up with. While it is possible that the NO was once named Yemeth during one of his incarnations, Yemeth is not his real, true, first name."
- Chris Avellone, Lead Designer of Torment (source)

"The Nameless One is not Zerthimon, and the Nameless One's "true name" is never revealed in the game - even I don't know who he truly is. "
- Chris Avellone (source: Interplay forum)

"I don't know TNO's true name; as I understand it (and as Chris stated), it doesn't exist in any official capacity (and as such it certainly isn't Adahn, Yemeth, etc.).

Really."
- Dave Maldonado, another Designer for Torment (source: Interplay forum)

If you defeat the robot prostitute (I believe her name was Dolora) at chess your mind races back to a memory of the Blood War in which your first incarnation claims yet another victory on the field of battle.

There was no indication which incarnation that memory was from.

I agree that the orignal NO was probably a arch-mage as he studied with Lum before he had even met Ravel...

TTO never says that the incarnation who danced with Lum the Mad was the original incarnation. TTO learned from all the incarnations.

The symbol of Torment tattooed onto the Nameless One is the symbol of a flag seen in the Blood War battle that rages during the ending cinematic.

I think that's TNO's journal. At the very least it's definitely a book and not a flag;
http://platter.jink....ges/finale2.jpg

And we already know the meaning behind the Symbol of Torment;
http://platter.jink....eric_symbol.htm

though Fhjull does not recognise TNO, he says that he would've remembered the scarring.

Fhjull also says "Something familiar about that one..." in a cutscene right before you leave him for the last time.

The planes are slowly dying because of the original's crime.

I believe the "Planes have been dying ever since" comment is referring to how someone dies in TNO's place each time he 'dies,' and not to the original incarnation's crime that damned him and made him want to seek out Ravel in the first place. Here is the conversation;
Original Incarnation: "I found that changing my nature was not enough. I needed more time, and I needed more life. So I came to the greatest of the Gray Sisters and asked her for a boon - to try and help me live long enough to rectify all the damage I had done. To make me immortal."
TNO: "And Ravel did. But when she first tested your immortality and killed you, you forgot everything. *Everything.*"
Original Incarnation: He looks broken. "And the Planes have been dying ever since. The crime is great, and the blame is mine."

Seriously, what's Yemeth's story? I've done a google search for "Yemeth" and "Yemeth wizard" but nothing's come up, except a few foreign sites.

From an item that's part of a removed quest in Torment;
"PENDANT OF YEMETH
Weight: 1

The Pendant of Yemeth is constructed of some silvery metal. Six crystals radiate from the skull in a circle, forming a crown of sorts. A leather lanyard is looped though an eyehole attached to the top of the skull.

The item is named for its creator, a sorcerer of a by-gone age. Though Yemeth's power was great, time began to take its toll on him; he began to grow weak and sodden. The Pendant was commissioned by the dying wizard to serve as a vessel for souls -- souls which Yemeth himself would draw from dying mortals, and later use to power his waning life-force. Yemeth was eventually slain in a battle, destroyed utterly, and the Pendant was lost. Sages said that, even if the Pendant were to be recovered, no mortal knows the secrets of its use."

Edited by Platter, 13 May 2004 - 08:21 PM.

[The Amazing Maurice]

To Platter - Do you know anything that suggests what the orginal incarnation's crime was?

[Longinus]

If you defeat the robot prostitute (I believe her name was Dolora) at chess your mind races back to a memory of the Blood War in which your first incarnation claims yet another victory on the field of battle.

There was no indication which incarnation that memory was from.

But too coincidental to be ignored nonetheless. Why was he drawn back into the Blood War conflict at the end if he wasn't tied to it somehow? I'm not ruling out anything.