20 replies to this topic

[Beastoftrall]

Hiya!

If you would, please check out my post here

Sorry for not posting it here in the first place. I just noticed this forum existed!

Thanks in advance!

[Baltrek]

I don't have a problem with the WW or GWW damage as is in the mod. My GWW kills faster and is a better fighter than most fighters. Four attacks while hasted, smokin' AC, insane regeneration, weapon immunity, magic resistance, hmmm.

[Beastoftrall]

True but they're a whole lot more fun when they do around twice or three times the damage =)

Besides any fighter would kill just as fast when buffed like that. Think of it like this:
the goal of this mod is to make the wolfwere shift actually a wolfwere shift. And it does so well.

With this fix a druid who becomes a wolfwere actually becomes a wolfwere in every way: Thaco, immunity, damage, regen, the whole shabang. So effectively it's like playing a wolfwere. Now think of this: can't your fighters 1vs1 a greater wolfwere (or plain ones at lower levels)? If they can then the shifted druid cannot be better than them, can he?

Besides like I said in my original post, a shifted druid is indeed better than most fighters in lower levels, but at higher levels he cannot compare with fighter HLAs like whirlwind and crit strike, and none of the druid HLAs can be used while shifted.

But generally I agree, shapeshifters kick ass now =)

[Rathwellin the Bard]

Sigh.

SHAPESHIFTER DRUIDS CANNOT CHANGE INTO WOLFWERES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Shapeshifters turn into Werewolves. It is a *huge* difference.

Mages & Sorcerers can change into Wolfweres vis the Shapechange spell.

[Beastoftrall]

Right so technically you are correct, but I only got the names wrong.

A druid indeed shifts into a werewolf and not a wolfwere, but those files I listed and the stats for the creatures are also werewolf ones and not wolfwere ones. So in all actuality I only got the name wrong, and my point still stands.

Oh and there isnt actually almost any diffrence between a werewolf and a wolfwere (almost identicle, only difrent by 1 thaco here, 2 ac there). They even have the same stats.

A greater wolfwere is *much* weaker than a greater werewolf though. They have much lower stats (19 str, 19 dex and 16 con) and their paws are the same as a regular wolfwere/werewolf.

So please don't shout.

[Caedwyr]

A wolfwere is a significantly different creature. A wolfwere is a wolf that can change into a human. Greater Wolfwere regenerates ALL hitpoints at the end of the round. That is powerful.

[jester]

Now think of this: can't your fighters 1vs1 a greater wolfwere (or plain ones at lower levels)? If they can then the shifted druid cannot be better than them, can he?

I am not sure what you were getting at, but offsetting a weakness is the reason for shapeshifting in the first place, so I guess he would be better.

[Beastoftrall]

A wolfwere is a significantly different creature. A wolfwere is a wolf that can change into a human. Greater Wolfwere regenerates ALL hitpoints at the end of the round. That is powerful.

Oh is that why I keep bumping into some nigh-unkillable ones at times?
Heh. Well my mistake and apologies then.

Errr but can we please get back to the original subject?
No matter the diffrences between werewolves and wolfweres, the files still point at the claws I mentioned......

So was leaving the old bear claws in intentional or not?

[Caedwyr]

From another thread

QUOTE(Littiz)

For the 300th time: the guys from bioware tried desperetely to overcome the engine limits, when they noticed that shapeshifting didn't work.
The additional effects they tried at first to place on the target cre files didn't get passed on the shapeshifted char. So they tried to give items to the target cre files (files used only for shapeshifting!), and placed the effects (effects such as immunity to web for the spider form) there. A "desperate" move which of course still didn't work.
In my fix, among the rest, I reapplied all of those effects, which I found in the target cre files and in their items.
YES, Immunity to non cold-iron weapons was there for the GWW form, so I just reapplied it, I wasn't wrong on this point.

So what is basically said, is that Littiz applied all of the effects and weapons that Bioware originally intended to have included for the form, but due to a number of bugs were never properly implemented. Essentially if there is a problem, then it's a problem with the original Bioware concept of a greater werewolf.

[Littiz]

Thanx Caedwyr (also for your nice advertising!).
In truth that one is a debatable point: the items Beastoftrall mentions are there, but since the paws for the shapeshifting druid were directly created by the shapeshifting spell already, I used those ones as a base.

I might change them, if it seems necessary (at most for the later forms, after Feral Spirit again).

Sorry, I'm always in a hurry lately.
Where is TGM??

[T.G.Maestro]

I might change them, if it seems necessary (at most for the later forms, after Feral Spirit again).

Maybe. I'd warn you though that Feral Spirit gets more and more powerful. I think we should think to make it accessible a bit harder.

[Littiz]

In truth, so far I've just weakened all the rest.
Ehm, now even the final GWW is weakened, since it is no more immune to non-cold iron weapons.

Beastoftrall is onto something, after all.
I'd appreciate some more opinions on this point

[Rathwellin the Bard]

IMO with weakened immunities more damage would be good.

[Rathwellin the Bard]

Maybe. I'd warn you though that Feral Spirit gets more and more powerful. I think we should think to make it accessible a bit harder.

Agree. It should have a pre-req or two IMO.

If nothing else to prevent dual classed Shapeshifter / Fighter ease of cheesing.

[Beastoftrall]

True, a shapeshifter dualled to a fighter is incredibly cheesy, but is it more cheesy than a kensai/mage or kensai/thief?

The purpose of this mod is to make shapeshifters what they were supposed to be (at least I think so, right?). These guys aren't the cheese police, they don't need to (nor should they IMO) come up with ways to stop cheese. If someone wants to ruin the game for themselves it's their own fault.

Truthfully I don't see why you shouldn't have the paws in the first place.... true, this is debatable, but from what I gather by looking at the files those are the original paws wolves come with (which also makes sense considering they now use bear-claws).... and honestly after playing around with it, it's more powerful but not unbalancing IMO. WW used to do like 13 damage and GWW did like 15. Now they do around 20 and 30 accordingly. More powerful indeed but that's the damage most high level fighters would do anyway.

Oh and sorry if I'm not following but how was the were form weakened? I know GWWs are now only immune to +2 and less instead of the cold iron thing (which is a good change and I already modded it on my copy personally) but is there anything else?


So if my opinion counts for anything I vote for the better wolf paws

p.s. I really appreciate the amount of support you guys have for this mod. Keep up the great work guys!!

[T.G.Maestro]

I really appreciate the amount of support you guys have for this mod. Keep up the great work guys!!

Thanks!

Ehm, now even the final GWW is weakened, since it is no more immune to non-cold iron weapons.

Wouldn't it be possible to make them immune to non-cold iron weapons, but ONLY below +3 enchantment level? I mean, they'd be immune to normal (non-cold) weapons below +3, but would be vulnerable to ALL cold-iron weapon, no matter their enchantment level. I think this would be the best way to show their true nature without unbalancing them.

True, a shapeshifter dualled to a fighter is incredibly cheesy, but is it more cheesy than a kensai/mage or kensai/thief?

Kensai/Thieves are no more an issue after you install Refinements - and there is nothing wrong with Kensai/Mages, at least technically.

WW used to do like 13 damage and GWW did like 15. Now they do around 20 and 30 accordingly. More powerful indeed but that's the damage most high level fighters would do anyway.

I say leave the weaker paws for the normal and greater forms, and the more powerful ones should only be added by choosing Feral Spirit. Thats my vote.

[Feanor]

Wouldn't it be possible to make them immune to non-cold iron weapons, but ONLY below +3 enchantment level? I mean, they'd be immune to normal (non-cold) weapons below +3, but would be vulnerable to ALL cold-iron weapon, no matter their enchantment level. I think this would be the best way to show their true nature without unbalancing them.

You are right, Maestro, but remember one thing : this would be only an aestethycal change and it might not worth the work. I say so because, in SOA and TOB, you meet only 2 foes with cold-iron weapons : Jamis Tombelthen with the Answerer and the Gith captain in Watcher's Keep with Angurvadal, but they are already +4 weapons.

[T.G.Maestro]

Right, it was only an idea. We might consider the SoA opponents though - with mods like Tactics installed, the party will have more than a few HLAs at the Tree of Life.

[Littiz]

Now, after feral spirit, paws do 1d12 damage.

yep, it's still the same for both forms, otherwise I'd have to change too many spells and effects (domino-like). Couldn't bother (and the forms don't need any more power)

[CamDawg]

Wow, I should check in here more often. Using the silver or non-cold iron flags is a bad, bad idea. Only seven weapons (three in SoA) are flagged as non-cold iron, as it is a deprecated flag from BG1. The silver flag is in essentially the same boat.

Werewolves are vulnerable to magical or regular silver weapons. Unfortunately, if you flag a monster with these immunities, the engine stacks them--making them vulnerable to only magical silver weapons. The same applies to wolfweres and their non-cold iron immunities.

Greater werewolves do not get higher weapons immunities--it's a strict magical/non-magical delineation.