Is it possible to modify dual wielding to allow the player to also quick-equip a bow or crossbow?
I was bummed in BGII that I thought I would still be able to have my ranger keep his trusty bow at ready when melee was a bad idea, but the game treats the offhand weapon the same as it does if he had a shield :/ So the dual wield points are wasted, and I'm stuck still with either single weapon or two-handed weapon to be able to switch to bow.
I almost understand the limitation with sword & sheild..... not easy to just ditch a shield and equip it again at a moment's notice. But two swords? c'mon. An experienced swordsman (as a dual wield proficient character would be) could sheath two swords in the same time he could sheath one, and probably quicker than he could a two handed weapon.
Any insight, has this already been done, or could it be?
Simple dual wield fix
Started by
-TodMeister-
, Apr 27 2004 09:54 AM
16 replies to this topic
#2
-Ashara-
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Posted 27 April 2004 - 10:50 AM
So, you mean, he sheaths his two long swords, and casually ripp his 7' strung long bow off his shoulder where he was keeping it all along while being an epitomy of grace which you need to dual-wield two weapons of equal length (which aren't all that realistic either)... When you go to your inventory moments lost indicate that you actually sheathed the swords, bent the staff and strung it. If anything, imo, one should not allow mixing melee and bows at all in quick slots, lolIs it possible to modify dual wielding to allow the player to also quick-equip a bow or crossbow?
I was bummed in BGII that I thought I would still be able to have my ranger keep his trusty bow at ready when melee was a bad idea, but the game treats the offhand weapon the same as it does if he had a shield :/ So the dual wield points are wasted, and I'm stuck still with either single weapon or two-handed weapon to be able to switch to bow.
I almost understand the limitation with sword & sheild..... not easy to just ditch a shield and equip it again at a moment's notice. But two swords? c'mon. An experienced swordsman (as a dual wield proficient character would be) could sheath two swords in the same time he could sheath one, and probably quicker than he could a two handed weapon.
Any insight, has this already been done, or could it be?
As for the shield, you are correct, the shields are actually strapped to the arm, appart from say small bucklers which you hold by the handle.
#3
Gherald
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Posted 27 April 2004 - 01:18 PM
Yeah, so you want bows to be more useless than they already are?When you go to your inventory moments lost indicate that you actually sheathed the swords, bent the staff and strung it. If anything, imo, one should not allow mixing melee and bows at all in quick slots, lol
C'mon, more advanced games like IWD2 and NWN allow you to configure "combinations" of weapons that can be switched with a few simple clicks. NWN even programs in a slight, more realistic delay.
Tod not wanting to go into his inventory is completely understandable. In real life, to switch between your bow and two swords do you have to do anything like opening your backpack and muck around inside moving stuff from your "inventory" to your "equiped slots" ?? Hell no.
Anyway, to directly answer your question Tod, it is a game engine limitation, or more accurately, a feature that was just not implemented before IWD2. Perhaps it could be changed with a mod, but I have no clue how it would be done.
IMO the best solution for rangers in 2E is to give them prof's in a good two-handed melee weapon such as a 2H sword or halberd. Besides, your ranger will be more effective with plate armor anyway.
It's only in 3E with the more realistic armor checks and max dexterity bonuses to AC that rangers dual weilding rapiers or short swords really becomes interesting. I have an elf in NWN leveled up equally in Ranger and Rogue and he's damn effective! Can't wait till I get to add a single level of shadowdancer to him... no one will stand a chance
#4
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Posted 27 April 2004 - 01:46 PM
Tod not wanting to go into his inventory is completely understandable. In real life, to switch between your bow and two swords do you have to do anything like opening your backpack and muck around inside moving stuff from your "inventory" to your "equiped slots" ?? Hell no.
Well, I never really tried to - one weapon is pretty much all I can lift and I cannot pull/string a short, let alone longbow, but I imagine, that is not very effective to use dual-wield and long bow together, because the staff has to be carried around and a bow staff has to be long and thick, for the bow to be effective. So, I imagine the sequence (if lucky) would be something like:
Bow ---> ground, sword out, sword---> ground, bow up. Unless you wield a bow staff as a club.
It could be an interesting item, actually a staff-bow, useable in both melee and range, depending on how close you are.
I never have a problem with step back, pause, inventory, sword down, bow up sequence, when taking a dual-weilder out of combat to go range. I simply keep one quck slot open for bow.
I do not like how IWD2 does it, actually with all those "quick" combinations. I find it very confusing.
IMO the best solution for rangers in 2E is to give them prof's in a good two-handed melee weapon such as a 2H sword or halberd. Besides, your ranger will be more effective with plate armor anyway.
I do not usually use it for rangers, but in Haer'Dalis case I simply give him crimson darts to throw if I want him out of melee for a while.
Well, I never really tried to - one weapon is pretty much all I can lift and I cannot pull/string a short, let alone longbow, but I imagine, that is not very effective to use dual-wield and long bow together, because the staff has to be carried around and a bow staff has to be long and thick, for the bow to be effective. So, I imagine the sequence (if lucky) would be something like:
Bow ---> ground, sword out, sword---> ground, bow up. Unless you wield a bow staff as a club.
It could be an interesting item, actually a staff-bow, useable in both melee and range, depending on how close you are.
I never have a problem with step back, pause, inventory, sword down, bow up sequence, when taking a dual-weilder out of combat to go range. I simply keep one quck slot open for bow.
I do not like how IWD2 does it, actually with all those "quick" combinations. I find it very confusing.
IMO the best solution for rangers in 2E is to give them prof's in a good two-handed melee weapon such as a 2H sword or halberd. Besides, your ranger will be more effective with plate armor anyway.
I do not usually use it for rangers, but in Haer'Dalis case I simply give him crimson darts to throw if I want him out of melee for a while.
#5
Gherald
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Posted 27 April 2004 - 02:24 PM
Bow ---> ground, sword out, sword---> ground, bow up. Unless you wield a bow staff as a club.
I don't care how it gets done, my point is that going to the inventory screen is ridiculous by comparison.
It could be an interesting item, actually a staff-bow, useable in both melee and range, depending on how close you are.
Bows have to be flexible, so they wouldn't make a very good staff. I'm sure getting wacked with one would hurt some, but it would be flimsy compared to a quarterstaff... so, say, 1d4 damage at most
I never have a problem with step back, pause,
You just killed any reasonable comparison to real life combat. If people could freeze time like that, switching weapons would be the least of everyone's worries.
[open] inventory, sword down, bow up sequence, when taking a dual-weilder out of combat to go range. I simply keep one quck slot open for bow.
Yes, pausing makes it viable. However, powerplayers like me, and folks like Tod (I make no assumptions about his style of play) find all this pausing to be rather tedious and like how it isn't necessary in games like IWD2 and NWN.
I do not like how IWD2 does it, actually with all those "quick" combinations. I find it very confusing.
Well its sort of an extra feature and if you don't like it you can go right on pausing your game and doing things the hard way.
I do not usually use it for rangers, but in Haer'Dalis case I simply give him crimson darts to throw if I want him out of melee for a while.
Uh, wouldn't your rather he sung? Anyway, crimson darts are nowhere near as effective as a good bow. And from a roleplay perspective, you have to agree rangers and bows go together.
#6
-domi_s-
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Posted 27 April 2004 - 04:28 PM
That's not exactly true. A long bow is flexible so it won't break, but it is also very thick and strong piece of wood. I think it can be almost as as thick as the wrist; at least mine, lol. The effort of pulling it is enormous, some hundred+ lbsBows have to be flexible, so they wouldn't make a very good staff. I'm sure getting wacked with one would hurt some, but it would be flimsy compared to a quarterstaff... so, say, 1d4 damage at most
I agree that more natural switch would be from bow to sword, than from sword to bow. Bowmen is a relatively stationary position, in the back, with arrows preferably sticking from the ground/quiver readily in front of him (no matter how pretty it looks when they pull them out of the quiver in the fantasy movies) and he runs when the swordsmen are on him.
I do not know how pausing can be tedious, because that's what makes the combat controlable, otherwise you might as well put everyone on AU, lol. Then you do not have to switch swords and bows on them, lol. They will do it for yourself
Uh, wouldn't your rather he sung?
Nope, blade's song is pretty much useless, and I usually do not play late parts of SoA/ToB, so I play w/o high level abilities for the most part.
And from a roleplay perspective, you have to agree rangers and bows go together.
I would not, actually. It is individual, I think. Kivan fex has Archer written on his elegant small finger, but Valygar is front-line katana dual-wield, with his attitude
#7
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Posted 27 April 2004 - 07:19 PM
Lets distinguish between two types of pausing... a quick double tap of the spacebar while in combat is one thing, but pausing, going to your inventory screen, manually rearanging equipment, and then exiting the inventory/unpausing is entirely different!
I do use AI with all my characters, but they don't tend to switch between weapons in a reasonable fashion, so I try and do that manually. For example, in BG1 and IWD1 I am very fond of giving all six of my characters a ranged weapon and manually switching to melee with 1 character at a time when an enemy is within point blank range of that character.
If you have a 5 other good characters that are hacking away, the blade's song is still better than a crimsom dart, IMO...
About rangers and bows going together, I suppose I should have clarified that it's stereotypical... obviously there are exceptions (like Valygar) but it is still very necessary for the game to allow rangers to switch seemlessly between their bows and melee weapon(s).
I do use AI with all my characters, but they don't tend to switch between weapons in a reasonable fashion, so I try and do that manually. For example, in BG1 and IWD1 I am very fond of giving all six of my characters a ranged weapon and manually switching to melee with 1 character at a time when an enemy is within point blank range of that character.
If you have a 5 other good characters that are hacking away, the blade's song is still better than a crimsom dart, IMO...
About rangers and bows going together, I suppose I should have clarified that it's stereotypical... obviously there are exceptions (like Valygar) but it is still very necessary for the game to allow rangers to switch seemlessly between their bows and melee weapon(s).
#8
-Ashara-
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Posted 28 April 2004 - 09:25 AM
About rangers and bows going together, I suppose I should have clarified that it's stereotypical... obviously there are exceptions (like Valygar) but it is still very necessary for the game to allow rangers to switch seemlessly between their bows and melee weapon(s).
Hardly...Let us see. In BG, out of three rangers only one is a picture-perfect bowman (Kivan, just for the pleasure of writing the name, lol), while Minsc has Lilacor written al over him, and Valygar, as was already discussed is the katana-dual-wield made flesh.
In the fantasy literature, the two characters that for me are an epitomy of rangers are:
Drizzt, who almost never uses the bow and knifes - the proficiencies he had in the early books, instead being a dual-wielding cliche of cliches;
Jon Snow who is a good archer, has that "bastard sword for the bastard" stamp on him, and I feel that this will be the blade he will be known for in the later books.
As for five hacking characters...erm, I tend to play divine/arkane magic heavy groups with one front-line fighter - Valygar and a second character (PC or Anomen) who can hold the frontline, if Valygar needs to be healed I found non-magic users boring in combats.
Regular darts are indeed a poor weapon, due to short range and small stack. But Crimson darts onm a character who can fend off a few blows are great.
Hardly...Let us see. In BG, out of three rangers only one is a picture-perfect bowman (Kivan, just for the pleasure of writing the name, lol), while Minsc has Lilacor written al over him, and Valygar, as was already discussed is the katana-dual-wield made flesh.
In the fantasy literature, the two characters that for me are an epitomy of rangers are:
Drizzt, who almost never uses the bow and knifes - the proficiencies he had in the early books, instead being a dual-wielding cliche of cliches;
Jon Snow who is a good archer, has that "bastard sword for the bastard" stamp on him, and I feel that this will be the blade he will be known for in the later books.
As for five hacking characters...erm, I tend to play divine/arkane magic heavy groups with one front-line fighter - Valygar and a second character (PC or Anomen) who can hold the frontline, if Valygar needs to be healed
I found non-magic users boring in combats.Regular darts are indeed a poor weapon, due to short range and small stack. But Crimson darts onm a character who can fend off a few blows are great.
#9
Xaositect_Crayon
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Posted 28 April 2004 - 09:51 AM
what I dont get is.... why cant you dual wield darts....
Crayons are the most chaotic bananas there never will be....
#10
GreyViper
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Posted 28 April 2004 - 11:10 AM
Try it and you will know why. B)what I dont get is.... why cant you dual wield darts....
Rangers need ranged weapon to hunt be it sling, bow or crossbow.About rangers and bows going together
About dual wielding swords, has anyone noticed that shorter and curved weapons work better together then 2 longsword.
With bastard swords its another thing.
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"A handsome young Cyborg named Ace,
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They vanished with nary a trace."
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"A handsome young Cyborg named Ace,
Wooed women at every base,
But once ladies glanced at
His special enhancement
They vanished with nary a trace."
Barracks Graffiti
Sparta Command
#11
Gherald
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Posted 28 April 2004 - 09:19 PM
Uh.. could you explain further?About dual wielding swords, has anyone noticed that shorter and curved weapons work better together then 2 longsword.
#12
GreyViper
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Posted 29 April 2004 - 04:51 AM
Ok Ill try, what I mean is that when twirling two swords curved and short ones are better suited for it. I guess this apply to wave blades to, but I am not sure. Straight points of LS have a habit of coliding offten. Bastard swords are mostly custom swords. Anyway I am not an expert , I just point the things out. 
Straight points of LS have a habit of coliding offten. Bastard swords are mostly custom swords. Anyway I am not an expert , I just point the things out.
Democracy is three Dragons and a Cow voting on what's for dinner!
"A handsome young Cyborg named Ace,
Wooed women at every base,
But once ladies glanced at
His special enhancement
They vanished with nary a trace."
Barracks Graffiti
Sparta Command
"A handsome young Cyborg named Ace,
Wooed women at every base,
But once ladies glanced at
His special enhancement
They vanished with nary a trace."
Barracks Graffiti
Sparta Command
#13
-Ashara-
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Posted 29 April 2004 - 05:48 AM
I think dual-wield with two weapons of equal length is a stuff of fantasy exclusevly, but I am by no means an expert. The historical dual-wield I believe is more of a dagger/sword combination. Shrug. Do not qoute me on this.
#14
Gherald
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Posted 29 April 2004 - 09:33 AM
You'd think bastard swords would be even more cumbersome to dual than longswords, due to their large size... heck, they are big enough to wield as a 2H sword if you feel like it.
I don't think dual weilding swords of equal length is unrealistic, just difficult. 3E has better rules for this... you need the ambidexterity feat for your offhand to be of any use, and if your offhand weapon is 1 size category smaller than you, the penalties are further reduced.
I don't think dual weilding swords of equal length is unrealistic, just difficult. 3E has better rules for this... you need the ambidexterity feat for your offhand to be of any use, and if your offhand weapon is 1 size category smaller than you, the penalties are further reduced.
#15
-Ashara-
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Posted 29 April 2004 - 10:55 AM
Yes, I agree, d-wielding a bastard sword or katanas is a mighty exaggeration. I think if it is difficult to do, it most probably will be ineffective in a real-life fight, since it is not a sport event or a carefully choreographed movie scene.You'd think bastard swords would be even more cumbersome to dual than longswords, due to their large size... heck, they are big enough to wield as a 2H sword if you feel like it.
#16
Xaositect_Crayon
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Posted 28 May 2004 - 10:44 PM
I have thrown darts with one in each hand... well throwing knives but anyways... my right hand is far better at the aim part but it still seemed no different than using a long knife in my left and a longsword in my right...
then again I am no martial artist...
then again I am no martial artist...
Crayons are the most chaotic bananas there never will be....
#17
Efreet
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Posted 09 June 2004 - 10:52 AM
Well, throwing darts with off-hand is very difficult, but fighting with a throwing axe in right hand and a normal axe in left hand should be made possible. As for two swords\katanas, yes, it is unrealistic and typical for carefully horeographed epic battles but D&D is heroic fantasy so this should be no problem.
Then she saw his eyes, red and mad as hell. And in that moment she knew that he could kill anyone, no matter how strong. Madness, true madness could put a fist through a plank.
