First, let me say for those who suffer from confusion that this is the forum for the Imoen Relationship, an entirely different mod than the Imoen Romance which is hosted over at TeamBG.
Now, since my mod will not operate alongside the mod of Lord M (at least, I have no intention of trying to make it so) then it seems people will need to choose between the two. While the fact that his has been out for a while and mine will be out long after means that people will likely be in a position where they have tried his and now want to try mine, it seems important still that I consider that this one needs to correct the mistakes his made so as to win people over.
To this end, I ask those of you who have played the Imoen romance, where did it go right, and where did it go wrong? What elements of that mod would you like to see in this mod (considering the different goals of the two), and which would you rather seen burned at the stake?
Imoen Romance - Lessons Learned
Started by Quitch, Apr 22 2004 01:10 AM
63 replies to this topic
#1
Quitch
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Perfection
Posted 22 April 2004 - 01:10 AM
Past: Ascension, Return to Windspear, Imoen Relationship, The Broken Hourglass
"Perfection has no deadline"
#2
-Drasius-
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Posted 22 April 2004 - 06:54 PM
*Stands up and looks around*
Hello, my name is Drasius, and I'm a pervy Imoen fancier.
*From the crowd*
Hi Drasius!
Ahh, sorry 'bout that, my bad sense of humour.
The first thing which threw me was that s/he made Imoen a lesbian, where is the evidence for this?
I feel that some of her dialouge wasn't quite in character, especially the swearing(I don't have a problem with her swearing, it was just in the wrong place at the wrong time).
She sometime had far to much dialouge in one sitting(ie. 7 or 8 paragraghs without a response from PC, other than when she was relating what happened or telling a story of course).
The ability to force talk her was good, though the subject matter could have been broadened considerably.
I personally like the idea of the early dreams where you share something of what Imoen is going though(ie the last Imoen dream). I know the idea is to go and get Imoen ASAP, which is much better than waiting around letting her suffer, so could we possibly have an early Imoen dream sharing some of the pain she is going through perhaps?
I mentioned this yesterday in another thread, but I will say it again here. I rather like the conversation when Imoen asks you how you are doing, it seems that no-one ever asks that of PC, just assumes s/he is fine and will solve everyones problems. Even with Jahiera, you can't express anything more that either:
i) Yes, of course I'm fine, I am full of good and righteousness.
ii) Yes, of course I'm fine, I shall have the power rightfully mine and fufill my evil birthright
iii) Bugger off Jahiera
The ability to express doubt and a talk with Imoen about what's going on, what to do next, how to deal with things(specific and general) would be nice.
I thought the scene after you come out of the underdark was done tremenously well, the musical instrument added a very nice touch, and revealed a side to Imoen that allows her another avenue of escape and ability to cope with what has happened.
The scene in the morning where she catches you unaware was perfectly Imoen IMHO, the right balance of playfulness and misceviousness, as well as the whole close childhood friend/sister thing, something of simpler times.
The unsureness(is that even a word?) that seems to grip Imoen after you rescue her was good, though a bit short lived, though the flashback or two was done moderately well. I thought the constant sad face cheering up when she notices you looking at her(ie, she's putting on a brave face for you) could have been explore a bit more, but was sufficeint.
More talk with party members about what happened and how to cope would be nice, especially with Jahiera since they have been together for quite a while.
Thanks for listening(well, reading, but you know what I mean) to that rant, but I am really looking forward to this mod, and I would like to see an Imoen as close to "My Imoen" as possible.
If and when you get frustrated by everyones constant bickering, remeber that the constant request for imput is what makes a good modder and is what makes for good mods.
Hello, my name is Drasius, and I'm a pervy Imoen fancier.
*From the crowd*
Hi Drasius!
Ahh, sorry 'bout that, my bad sense of humour.
The first thing which threw me was that s/he made Imoen a lesbian, where is the evidence for this?
I feel that some of her dialouge wasn't quite in character, especially the swearing(I don't have a problem with her swearing, it was just in the wrong place at the wrong time).
She sometime had far to much dialouge in one sitting(ie. 7 or 8 paragraghs without a response from PC, other than when she was relating what happened or telling a story of course).
The ability to force talk her was good, though the subject matter could have been broadened considerably.
I personally like the idea of the early dreams where you share something of what Imoen is going though(ie the last Imoen dream). I know the idea is to go and get Imoen ASAP, which is much better than waiting around letting her suffer, so could we possibly have an early Imoen dream sharing some of the pain she is going through perhaps?
I mentioned this yesterday in another thread, but I will say it again here. I rather like the conversation when Imoen asks you how you are doing, it seems that no-one ever asks that of PC, just assumes s/he is fine and will solve everyones problems. Even with Jahiera, you can't express anything more that either:
i) Yes, of course I'm fine, I am full of good and righteousness.
ii) Yes, of course I'm fine, I shall have the power rightfully mine and fufill my evil birthright
iii) Bugger off Jahiera
The ability to express doubt and a talk with Imoen about what's going on, what to do next, how to deal with things(specific and general) would be nice.
I thought the scene after you come out of the underdark was done tremenously well, the musical instrument added a very nice touch, and revealed a side to Imoen that allows her another avenue of escape and ability to cope with what has happened.
The scene in the morning where she catches you unaware was perfectly Imoen IMHO, the right balance of playfulness and misceviousness, as well as the whole close childhood friend/sister thing, something of simpler times.
The unsureness(is that even a word?) that seems to grip Imoen after you rescue her was good, though a bit short lived, though the flashback or two was done moderately well. I thought the constant sad face cheering up when she notices you looking at her(ie, she's putting on a brave face for you) could have been explore a bit more, but was sufficeint.
More talk with party members about what happened and how to cope would be nice, especially with Jahiera since they have been together for quite a while.
Thanks for listening(well, reading, but you know what I mean) to that rant, but I am really looking forward to this mod, and I would like to see an Imoen as close to "My Imoen" as possible.
If and when you get frustrated by everyones constant bickering, remeber that the constant request for imput is what makes a good modder and is what makes for good mods.
#3
-Cybersquirt-
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Posted 23 April 2004 - 06:13 AM
What it did right- I think Mirrabbo did an excellent job in telling her story and expanding her. I should probably say that I played it more than a year ago now, so my memory is a bit selective, but I really enjoyed it. In my opinion, it presented an adult Imoen; one who was tortured by Jon and lived for a year or two on the road, as opposed the girl who snuck out of Candlekeep to spy on us.
What it did wrong- I would have to say the eventual opportunity to beat her to death in (what seemed like) every other dialogue. It was too much. If you've played it, you might know what I mean.
What it did wrong- I would have to say the eventual opportunity to beat her to death in (what seemed like) every other dialogue. It was too much. If you've played it, you might know what I mean.
#4
SimDing0
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GROUP ICON
Posted 23 April 2004 - 06:28 AM
Yes, I think one of the things Mirrabbo is reputed for is having the most extreme dialogue options at every opportunity. Now, while we all know choice is good, dialogue options should be vaguely relevant to the topic at hand. I'm fairly sure I've been told that there was one in which it was possible to say "I need a poo," although don't take this as certain, since I haven't played the mod. As much as it may be hilarious to inform Imoen of your bowel cycles, I don't think responses like this add a great deal to a mod.
#5
Hendryk
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Posted 23 April 2004 - 07:47 AM
A little hazy by now but...
The romance itself, I take it, so irrelevant here so I'll ignore it.
The backstory, starting at Candlekeep and including Imoen's torments in Spellhold was very welcome. A little melodramatic in places but with me, a very little melodrama goes a very long way.
The Good options to support Imoen in healing and maturing were also welcome. Too few of them and too limited in content if anything.
I didn't like his slant on the Evil options. Apparently Lord M. conceived of an Evil PC as being nothing more than a mindless brute who would further Imoen's mental disintegration simply because, Imoen being so vulnerable, he could. While that's certainly one way of Evil, I prefer more manipulative, self-serving options like molding her into an obedient, utterly dependent mind slave. That way is not only as much sadistic fun but the end product is still of some use.
Of course, something Evil like that could have been there and I missed it.
The romance itself, I take it, so irrelevant here so I'll ignore it.
The backstory, starting at Candlekeep and including Imoen's torments in Spellhold was very welcome. A little melodramatic in places but with me, a very little melodrama goes a very long way.
The Good options to support Imoen in healing and maturing were also welcome. Too few of them and too limited in content if anything.
I didn't like his slant on the Evil options. Apparently Lord M. conceived of an Evil PC as being nothing more than a mindless brute who would further Imoen's mental disintegration simply because, Imoen being so vulnerable, he could. While that's certainly one way of Evil, I prefer more manipulative, self-serving options like molding her into an obedient, utterly dependent mind slave. That way is not only as much sadistic fun but the end product is still of some use.
Of course, something Evil like that could have been there and I missed it.
Ready. Fire. Aim.
#6
-Cybersquirt-
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Posted 24 April 2004 - 01:55 AM
I think it was supposed to be a chaotic reply. What that reminds me of, however, is a conversation I had with someone wherein we were talking about "having too much fun with it" - meaning some of the responses were just there to be there and others were supposed to be silly or funny.. utterly useless and, if used too much, annoying as hell. Mirrabbo had a little fun with it; how much, is a matter of opinion.I'm fairly sure I've been told that there was one in which it was possible to say "I need a poo," although don't take this as certain, since I haven't played the mod. As much as it may be hilarious to inform Imoen of your bowel cycles, I don't think responses like this add a great deal to a mod.
Hmm.. sort of like 'bondari reloads' - which I liked, but mentioned for the purposes of the point. ..and most of the ToB dialogues in Saradush, for that matter - which I didn't like because I was paying for a fu*king story not (continuous) ignorant, camp lines.
#7
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Posted 24 April 2004 - 07:58 AM
Well, I didn't really like the way he made up parts of Imoen's history. Charname and Imoen were meant to be the only 'children' at Candlekeep weren't they and then Mirrabo adds some lesbian girl to the mix to try to justify Imoen's bisexuality, which I believe was poorly done. If you were to keep within the bounds that we know of Imoen then that would be better - she seems heterosexual in the games.
Also, those random nonsensical replies were rather annoying, especially one completely stupid reply where you are sniffing Imoen's underwear or something, it seemed to just turn into a nonsense talk mod, so I'd advise against doing stuff like that.
Something also rather annoying was that he made Imoen sex-crazed. You could do her just about anywhere - a dungeon, a druid grove, the middle of the street, the basement of the Five Flagons... meaning you saw less development in her healing, she just seems to use sex to get away from it all - which I believe is not Imoen. Most of the talks you have with her end up in sex, but since this is no romance, I have a feeling we won't need to worry about that.
He did seem to get the way Imoen spoke down pat, but it's not that hard to talk like Imoen, dontcha think?
Hmm.. what else annoyed me? Hmm... Oh yeah, the fact that you can beat her to near-death all the time, but she ALWAYS ends up killing you with a dagger to the neck, never mind you have a dexterity of a bajillion, you can't dodge this!
Oh, too much swearing, like "FUCK YOU IMOEN!" to which she probably replied something like "Hmm... down here? In this basement?" *pukes*
Overall, the mod didn't really EXPAND Imoen in any direction from what we know, oh it ADDED things, but didn't EXPAND her, if you catch my drift.
I think that's about it, because I deleted it from my PC and can't go back to look at it, and I don't really like the romance at the end of the day.
I'm sure if you avoid all these points, Quitch, then you'll do fine, but then you are a superior writer in all aspects, I think. Hmm.. I have a hunch this might turn into an Imoen Romance-bashing thread
Also, those random nonsensical replies were rather annoying, especially one completely stupid reply where you are sniffing Imoen's underwear or something, it seemed to just turn into a nonsense talk mod, so I'd advise against doing stuff like that.
Something also rather annoying was that he made Imoen sex-crazed. You could do her just about anywhere - a dungeon, a druid grove, the middle of the street, the basement of the Five Flagons... meaning you saw less development in her healing, she just seems to use sex to get away from it all - which I believe is not Imoen. Most of the talks you have with her end up in sex, but since this is no romance, I have a feeling we won't need to worry about that.
He did seem to get the way Imoen spoke down pat, but it's not that hard to talk like Imoen, dontcha think?
Hmm.. what else annoyed me? Hmm... Oh yeah, the fact that you can beat her to near-death all the time, but she ALWAYS ends up killing you with a dagger to the neck, never mind you have a dexterity of a bajillion, you can't dodge this!
Oh, too much swearing, like "FUCK YOU IMOEN!" to which she probably replied something like "Hmm... down here? In this basement?" *pukes*
Overall, the mod didn't really EXPAND Imoen in any direction from what we know, oh it ADDED things, but didn't EXPAND her, if you catch my drift.
I think that's about it, because I deleted it from my PC and can't go back to look at it, and I don't really like the romance at the end of the day.
I'm sure if you avoid all these points, Quitch, then you'll do fine, but then you are a superior writer in all aspects, I think. Hmm.. I have a hunch this might turn into an Imoen Romance-bashing thread
#8
Quitch
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Perfection
Posted 24 April 2004 - 02:31 PM
He did seem to get the way Imoen spoke down pat, but it's not that hard to talk like Imoen, dontcha think?
I think everyone has different ideas of how Imoen talks. I, for example, don't like the way jcompton writes her. I think he has a real talent for impersonating the NPCs, but I just don't like his Imoen writing. This is in part the reason I opened up several writing topics so people could raise this sort of thing with me.
Past: Ascension, Return to Windspear, Imoen Relationship, The Broken Hourglass
"Perfection has no deadline"
#9
-Cybersquirt--
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Posted 24 April 2004 - 07:55 PM
Were that to happen, she'd be asexual. Take it over to the Imoen's sexuality thread, guest; I, for one, will surely engage you in a conversation about this. It's all I can do to keep from laughing my ass off when people start this "proof" line of logic - It is, and will always be, a subjective opinion.If you were to keep within the bounds that we know of Imoen then that would be better.
Only if, as you did, people limit the discussion to pointing out what annoyed them.Hmm.. I have a hunch this might turn into an Imoen Romance-bashing thread
#10
Ismail
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Squirrel Pride Worldwide!
Posted 25 April 2004 - 02:06 AM
Imoen romance is, thus far, my favourite mod, along with the Subraces mod (which, of course, has gazillions of light years to go before reaching perfection). The main annoyance with it is the fact that the music at every conversation stuff up my game for a whole minute before resuming. However, the music itself is better than in any other mod I've encountered thus far. I tried installing the no-music version, but that, for some reason, silenced Chloe instead of Imoen... go figure.
Also... it should make a difference between Underdark and not Underdark. I mean, if two drow females decide to steal their group leaders' stuff (Aerie&Immy joke on PC), the group leader, especially when female, should just kill them or have the Handmaidens punish them instead of laughing along. Drow, as we know, are NOT known for their sense of humour.
Also... it should make a difference between Underdark and not Underdark. I mean, if two drow females decide to steal their group leaders' stuff (Aerie&Immy joke on PC), the group leader, especially when female, should just kill them or have the Handmaidens punish them instead of laughing along. Drow, as we know, are NOT known for their sense of humour.
Lahinguväljal joome, raisk!
#11
LSWSjr
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Creator of DHSTU
Posted 25 April 2004 - 02:48 AM
Hiya all from here in Oz once more.
My problems came from not enough options... Okay some people say that was the opposite by I continue.
I did offer romance to anny race and class, but avoided evil characters, now this is something you said that you would include so I'll leave it at that.
Lord M. did include some things that were out of place, not usually with the writing, but with the swearing and like mentioned above, the Drow events.
Another thing that you have mentioned is that there will be space for both friendship and possible romance, yet Lord M. seemed to only offer softcore porn at every turn instead.
I agree that what I have seen of your dialogue over the last few years, is better than Old Jason's Immie dialogue anyday.
And as mentioned a while ago and wouldn't mind an Imoen+PC pregnancy or instead a cat named Gospel and a blue dog named Cybersquirt!!!
LSWSjr of LSWSjr Australia singing off
My problems came from not enough options... Okay some people say that was the opposite by I continue.
I did offer romance to anny race and class, but avoided evil characters, now this is something you said that you would include so I'll leave it at that.
Lord M. did include some things that were out of place, not usually with the writing, but with the swearing and like mentioned above, the Drow events.
Another thing that you have mentioned is that there will be space for both friendship and possible romance, yet Lord M. seemed to only offer softcore porn at every turn instead.
I agree that what I have seen of your dialogue over the last few years, is better than Old Jason's Immie dialogue anyday.
And as mentioned a while ago and wouldn't mind an Imoen+PC pregnancy or instead a cat named Gospel and a blue dog named Cybersquirt!!!
LSWSjr of LSWSjr Australia singing off
[QUOTE]*
In the end, when the chips are down, when you feel like its all over, you have to ask yourself "Was this the right way to be defeated by the inevitable?" and there is only one answer... "It is in this liftime, so I'll see ya in the next, Rowan T. of LSWSjr Publications signing off!"
*Rowan Tritton of LSWSjr Publications/Productions/Studios Australia.
In the end, when the chips are down, when you feel like its all over, you have to ask yourself "Was this the right way to be defeated by the inevitable?" and there is only one answer... "It is in this liftime, so I'll see ya in the next, Rowan T. of LSWSjr Publications signing off!"
*Rowan Tritton of LSWSjr Publications/Productions/Studios Australia.
#12
Quitch
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Perfection
Posted 25 April 2004 - 12:21 PM
You'll have to explain this drow element to me, I haven't played the mod.
Past: Ascension, Return to Windspear, Imoen Relationship, The Broken Hourglass
"Perfection has no deadline"
#13
JPS
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Knight of the Living Dead
Posted 25 April 2004 - 12:31 PM
I haven't played the mod either, so I might be wrong, but I got the impression that the problem is that some of the more playful elements (like Aerie and Imoen stealing the PCs stuff) can occur even when the characters are supposed to be impresonating drow. So the issue wouldn't have to do with writing as much as with a minor oversight in coding.
If I am wrong and there is a "drow event", I'll just delete this post and pretend I never said anything...
If I am wrong and there is a "drow event", I'll just delete this post and pretend I never said anything...
"They have no thought of safety, subtlety, or strategy, leaving others with no hope of stopping their mass assault."
Visit the Gibberlings Three!
Visit the Gibberlings Three!
#14
Ismail
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Squirrel Pride Worldwide!
Posted 25 April 2004 - 07:47 PM
that is correct. The OTHER "drow elements" are fine and dandy
Lahinguväljal joome, raisk!
#15
-Kyle-
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Posted 26 April 2004 - 05:12 AM
I think the idea to make Imoen a lesbian was taken from the Baldur's Gate books, in which Imoen was, in fact, a lesbian. I believe it's in Baldur's Gate Shadows of Amn the book that after she's magically transformed into a drow along with Abdel and Jaheira that she ends up sleeping and then bathing with Phaere in Ust`Natha. Also if you've read Baldur's Gate Throne of Bhaal the book, she is constantly trying to impress Melissan who she is infatuated with in that book. I think this may be where he got the idea to make Imoen a lesbian.
#16
Quitch
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Perfection
Posted 26 April 2004 - 02:20 PM
Ah yes, the books...
Past: Ascension, Return to Windspear, Imoen Relationship, The Broken Hourglass
"Perfection has no deadline"
#17
TheBalor
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Posted 26 April 2004 - 09:15 PM
I'd like to add my voice to those of the opinion that that Lord Mirrabo placed a heavier emphasis and exaggeration on the random "chaotic" replies than humor or alignment required. Most degenerated, and forced you to either say "Oh, I'm just joking. What was it you said?" and continue on the conversation normally, or have the PC's behavior become out-right insanity.
Imoen did seem to have an overactive libido, but I'm not sure if it would be wise to pass judgement on that area of the mod just yet. There is a dialogue wherein Imoen talks of her fears about their relationship becoming completely about sex, and in a possible outcome (seemingly the main one) she basically decides to stop being such a horn-dog and start focusing more on having a "sweeter" relationship. This is a later dialogue, so the results would not be seen until the TOB part of the mod. There are other things, such as the sparseness of meaningful reaction from other characters, but I think that a really informed opinion could be formed only when the TOB portion of the mod has come out. It promises to be at least twice as large as the SOA portion.
I would also like to say I don't see why the bisexual thing is a big deal. Imoen was given zero development in BGI, aside from the whole childhood friend deal, which is standard fantasy fare. In SOA, I cannot even remember any dialogues with her related to sexuality in any form. The lack of info on the issue seems to put it under modder's prerogative.
Imoen did seem to have an overactive libido, but I'm not sure if it would be wise to pass judgement on that area of the mod just yet. There is a dialogue wherein Imoen talks of her fears about their relationship becoming completely about sex, and in a possible outcome (seemingly the main one) she basically decides to stop being such a horn-dog and start focusing more on having a "sweeter" relationship. This is a later dialogue, so the results would not be seen until the TOB part of the mod. There are other things, such as the sparseness of meaningful reaction from other characters, but I think that a really informed opinion could be formed only when the TOB portion of the mod has come out. It promises to be at least twice as large as the SOA portion.
I would also like to say I don't see why the bisexual thing is a big deal. Imoen was given zero development in BGI, aside from the whole childhood friend deal, which is standard fantasy fare. In SOA, I cannot even remember any dialogues with her related to sexuality in any form. The lack of info on the issue seems to put it under modder's prerogative.
Man's unfailing capacity to believe what he prefers to be true rather than what the evidence shows to be likely and possible has always astounded me. We long for a caring Universe which will save us from our childish mistakes, and in the face of mountains of evidence to the contrary we will pin all our hopes on the slimmest of doubts. God has not been proven not to exist, therefore he must exist.
Academician Prokhor Zakharov
"For I Have Tasted The Fruit"
Academician Prokhor Zakharov
"For I Have Tasted The Fruit"
#18
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Posted 27 April 2004 - 02:42 AM
I said this in the other post, but I'll say it here again. In the Imoen Romance she sometimes said TOO MUCH when you were talking to her. I really think that her telling the PC that she dreamed of you shagging her or kissing every orifice on her body when you you both still consider each other brother and sister is very... disgusting.
It seems like Imoen is manipulative in the mod. "I dreamed of us having sex, but I don't want to have sex with you, so ner!" It just seems quite tasteless that she kind of... provokes a reaction from the character, yet she is utterly disgusted and swears at you and tries to beat you up when you click that reaction that was so blatantly provoked.
It seems most dialogues were written while Lord Mirrabo was having a wank (pardon my french) or was extremely horny and just skipped over the friendship part and wants to force you into sex with her. It's obvious what dialogues had most effort put into them (the sex-related ones).
The only thing I liked out of it all, really, was that Imoen seemed scarred from her time in Spellhold, like the odd occasion she would look in the direction that it was, unknowingly.
Maybe I'm wrong, I played it like, a year ago or something like that, so I'm going mainly by memory.
It seems like Imoen is manipulative in the mod. "I dreamed of us having sex, but I don't want to have sex with you, so ner!" It just seems quite tasteless that she kind of... provokes a reaction from the character, yet she is utterly disgusted and swears at you and tries to beat you up when you click that reaction that was so blatantly provoked.
It seems most dialogues were written while Lord Mirrabo was having a wank (pardon my french) or was extremely horny and just skipped over the friendship part and wants to force you into sex with her. It's obvious what dialogues had most effort put into them (the sex-related ones).
The only thing I liked out of it all, really, was that Imoen seemed scarred from her time in Spellhold, like the odd occasion she would look in the direction that it was, unknowingly.
Maybe I'm wrong, I played it like, a year ago or something like that, so I'm going mainly by memory.
#19
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Posted 07 May 2004 - 01:58 PM
She didn't dream that you had sex. She dreamed that the PC came to her during her torture and held her.
#20
TheSisko
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Emissary to the Prophets
Posted 07 May 2004 - 02:12 PM
Nope, I just played it...she definitively admits that she dreamed PC made love to her, though you have to grill her a bit for it.
