175 replies to this topic

[BobTokyo]

Immunity to weapons might be a fine option... there are also monk NPCs after all.
We want stuff that fits, not stuff to powerplay, in principle.

I'd say that some high level of immunity to all weapons would be very-good: Hardiness or a higher power version. Immunity to Normal Weapons would be as worthless to TOB Monk NPCs as it is to CHARNAME.

[Rathwellin the Bard]

I still say Diamond Soul sounds like Immunity to Level Drain to me. Full integration of soul & body should make said soul harder for undead to drain, no?

Failing that Immunity to +1 weapons would be something ... but not all that. As BT said Immunity to Normal Weapons is useless.

[T.G.Maestro]

Perfect Self: At 20th level, a monk becomes a magical creature. She is forevermore treated as an outsider rather than as a humanoid (or whatever the monk?s creature type was) for the purpose of spells and magical effects. Additionally, the monk gains damage reduction 10/magic, which allows her to ignore the first 10 points of damage from any attack made by a nonmagical weapon or by any natural attack made by a creature that doesn?t have similar damage reduction. Unlike other outsiders, the monk can still be brought back from the dead as if she were a member of her previous creature type.

Let us forget Diamond Soul, and keep on working on this one. In the end we might name it Diamond Soul (simply because it sounds nice!), but the main effects should reflect the Perfect Self feat somehow, at least in parts.

I'd say that some high level of immunity to all weapons would be very-good: Hardiness or a higher power version

Take a look at Chant - monks already possess such an ability in Refinements.

I still say Diamond Soul sounds like Immunity to Level Drain to me. Full integration of soul & body should make said soul harder for undead to drain, no?

True, though this would be too much for this ability. Understand, this HLA should be a "basis" for more powerful ones, for example Inner Time. It should represent an inner focus of the character, but shouldn't offer anything REALLY useful (and Level-drain immunity is more than useful in my eyes). Simply imagine - this is a base HLA, which means everyone can choose it without prerequisites, as soon as he/she hits the XP limit. This would mean that many monks would be able to become immune to level drain before confronting Bodhi - and this should be avoided at all costs for heavy balancing reasons.

Immunity to weapons might be a fine option

Yes, with some other small bonuses that show the perfection of soul as well. Immunity to a few magical effects, especially mind-controlling ones maybe?

[Feanor]

I'm on Rathwellin's side on this. Level Drain immunity it's suitable, but not because "Full integration of soul & body should make said soul harder for undead to drain, no?", but because the monk is treated as an outsider. If his opponent is in Prime material plane while the monk is a kind of ethereal, it should be harder for the opponent to level drain the monk. So, a level drain immunity or at least a high resistance against level drain.

[T.G.Maestro]

a high resistance against level drain

There is no such thing. If there would be, I'd gladly add it, but again, complete Level-Drain immunity is too much for this ability. For better explanation please see my previous post.

[Feanor]

a high resistance against level drain

There is no such thing. If there would be, I'd gladly add it, but again, complete Level-Drain immunity is too much for this ability. For better explanation please see my previous post.

Maybe increased saving throw against breath weapons would ensure such a thing ?

But are 2 thing which must be specified :

1. Diamond Soul would be treated as a permanent bonus (like regeneration for instance) or it would be a temporar ability like the Stances, for instance ?
2. The description says "the monk is treated as an outsider". What kind of outsider ? Ethereal, perhaps ?

[T.G.Maestro]

Maybe increased saving throw against breath weapons would ensure such a thing ?

Of course not. Level Drain can only be avoided by a specific opcode, nothing else. Saves won't help.

1. Diamond Soul would be treated as a permanent bonus (like regeneration for instance) or it would be a temporar ability like the Stances, for instance ?

A permanent bonus, just like Inner Focus for example. This is why I want it to be a moderate bonus to the character. In addition -you can see if you examine the monk HLA table structure- it will be the (pre)prerequisite of several more powerfulabilities, including Inner Time.

2. The description says "the monk is treated as an outsider". What kind of outsider ? Ethereal, perhaps ?

I'm not sure, and I'm completely open to suggestions and opinions on this matter.

[Rathwellin the Bard]

I still say Diamond Soul sounds like Immunity to Level Drain to me. Full integration of soul & body should make said soul harder for undead to drain, no?

True, though this would be too much for this ability. Understand, this HLA should be a "basis" for more powerful ones, for example Inner Time. It should represent an inner focus of the character, but shouldn't offer anything REALLY useful (and Level-drain immunity is more than useful in my eyes). Simply imagine - this is a base HLA, which means everyone can choose it without prerequisites, as soon as he/she hits the XP limit. This would mean that many monks would be able to become immune to level drain before confronting Bodhi - and this should be avoided at all costs for heavy balancing reasons.

I've got you on power but I disagree on a few points.

Mages, Clerics, Druids, Rangers, & Palladins can all have immunity to level drain via an item (Amulet of Power) early in Chapter 3.

Pure Fighters can get it late in Chapter 3 (Improved Mace of Disruption).

Only Thieves and Monks don't have access to some form of protection here in the vanilla game and Thieves can get their protection via Mods as early as Chapter 2.

That leaves Monks as the *only* class that never gets access to level drain protection.

Is this a 'useful' ability? Heck yeah! Maybe too much so for what you have in mind? Maybe so.

Hence my final LDI suggestion. 50% chance of Immunity to Level Drain on hit. This way the HLA will not give blanket immunity but will offer some protection.

I also just want to note that in 3rd edition that most of the Monks special abilities are considered SUs ... i.e. Supernatural Abilities.

[Schatten]

why not the plain old 3rd ed perfect self? damage red and immun to mind spells?

[BobTokyo]

About Level Drain immunity: It is already established in the BG2 game that the "Rage" of barbarians can protect them from Level Drain. There are an endless number of Hong Kong martial arts films featuring martial artists fighting Vampires, martial artists fighting supernatural creaturs, and martial artists who are vampires (Jet Li's "Cult Master" from the early 90s and the 2003 "Twins Effect" movie come to mind, as well as the long running "Mister Vampire" comedy series). Real world Spirit Fist kung-fu teaches practitioners to meditate on chanelling the spirits of dead kung-fu masters, and the practitioners do not think of it as a joke.

So, in BG2 we know that an internal power (Barbarian Rage) can protect from level drain, we know that official D&D includes all kinds of supernatural abilities for monks, we know that real world martial arts sometimes features mystic ritual, and we know the martial arts film genre that gives us the Monk's other special abilities includes vampire and undead fighting. The mod makers may or may not want to include level drain immunity, but that is a matter of personal taste. There is no genre or game balance reason not to.

[Feanor]

Maybe it could be way to reduce the level drain effect ? I mean, if Bodhi drains 4 levels per hit, to have an ability which would allow it to drain only 2 levels ?

[BobTokyo]

Maybe it could be way to reduce the level drain effect ? I mean, if Bodhi drains 4 levels per hit, to have an ability which would allow it to drain only 2 levels ?

I think that all or nothing immunity is all that the engine can do. If you want to limit it, making it a limited duration power that has to be turned on is easy.

[Feanor]

I'm not sure, and I'm completely open to suggestions and opinions on this matter. 

1.About the Ethereal ability (this time I really caught you, Maestro) : TG, I believe you did 2 mistakes. First, I don't think immunity to divination it's a good idea. You did not read the description of the plane carefully enough. I quote from the plane manual : "Spells and abilities such as see invisible reveal an ethereal object or creature." Another quote : "Spellcasters on the Material Plane must have some way to detect foes on the Ethereal Plane before targeting them with force-based spells, of course". Second, he should be able to use some of his innates. The manual says he cannot target other creatures with spells while is ethereal, but does not specifies anything about spells casted upon himself.

2. About perfect self : And I want to call your attention, TG, upon the fact you can't use that description from IWD2 without any alterations. It points clearly a magic resistance, but the BG2 monks already have that one. At level 20, they already have a 60% magic resistance and it will increase further.

3. About Diamond Soul : the part with the monk treated as an outsider. Well, I think he could be treated as an ethereal, but you already gave this ability. Other planes are not so related with the Prime Material plane. Some bonuses which could fit with the names could be : immunity to fear and mind-affecting spells like domination or chaos (if you decide on Diamond Soul) or immunity to greater malison (for Perfect Self). I would vote for the first ones (note that the monk already a charm immunity, so it would not be surprising at all if he develops those kind of immunities further for more powerful spells).

[T.G.Maestro]

my final LDI suggestion. 50% chance of Immunity to Level Drain on hit. This way the HLA will not give blanket immunity but will offer some protection.

While I agree with your reasoning about the other classes Rathwellin, I cannot add this ability this way. You see, an 50% chance of immunity is rather silly: it would result in a completely unreliable ability, and I would avoid that at all costs. I hope you understand.

I also just want to note that in 3rd edition that most of the Monks special abilities are considered SUs ... i.e. Supernatural Abilities.

Indeed, and if you examine the new monk table, it features a lot of such powers.

why not the plain old 3rd ed perfect self? damage red and immun to mind spells?

To be honest, that is what I intend to do. Of course not a 100% copy of the 3rdE ability, but something similar. Maybe without the damage reduction?

The mod makers may or may not want to include level drain immunity, but that is a matter of personal taste. There is no genre or game balance reason not to.

No Bob, there is a reason. While I agree to the point (see my reply to Rathwellin) that it wouldn't unbalance the game completely, I would once again call the attention to the fact that I TRY TO MAKE THIS A LESS POWERFUL BASIS ABILITY. And since this is a permanent bonus, we must be a bit more cautious by using opcode immunities. While immnuity to Confusion and Domination is useful against various opponents and can give a boost in some situations, an immunity vs. Level Drain makes Vampires easy prey for all. I still think this is a considerable thing.

1.About the Ethereal ability (this time I really caught you, Maestro)

Catching me starts to become your obsession!

First, I don't think immunity to divination it's a good idea. You did not read the description of the plane carefully enough. I quote from the plane manual : "Spells and abilities such as see invisible reveal an ethereal object or creature." Another quote : "Spellcasters on the Material Plane spellholdstudios.netmust have some way to detect foes on the Ethereal Plane before targeting them with force-based spells, of course"

I have a simple reason for this: all the other versions of this ability (both Illaera's or Imoen's uses this method, e.g. they make the creature immune to divination for a duration.

Second, he should be able to use some of his innates. The manual says he cannot target other creatures with spells while is ethereal, but does not specifies anything about spells casted upon himself.

Illasera can do this while Imoen can't. The main point is that I cannot set this so that only the offensive abilities could be used, in another words, this is an "all or nothing" situation. Either we allow the character to use all of his innates (be it offensive or defensive), or we disable all of them. I'm not sure about your opinion, but for balancing reasons I decided to use the latter option.

About perfect self : And I want to call your attention, TG, upon the fact you can't use that description from IWD2 without any alterations. It points clearly a magic resistance, but the BG2 monks already have that one. At level 20, they already have a 60% magic resistance and it will increase further.

Thanks for the notification, but I'm sure you didn't think I'd simply copy-paste it without "translating" it to the language of BG2...

3. About Diamond Soul : the part with the monk treated as an outsider. Well, I think he could be treated as an ethereal, but you already gave this ability

Not really. Take a look at the table - Diamond Soul (or Perfect Self, we'll choose the name soon) is a prerequisite of Ethereal, it doesn't mean an ethereal nature. Only the required mental/physical state to achieve such a level.

[Schatten]

"To be honest, that is what I intend to do. Of course not a 100% copy of the 3rdE ability, but something similar. Maybe without the damage reduction?"

seems okay. perhaps a 3-5%dr wouldnt hurt and if not its still usefull.

[BobTokyo]

The mod makers may or may not want to include level drain immunity, but that is a matter of personal taste. There is no genre or game balance reason not to.

No Bob, there is a reason. While I agree to the point (see my reply to Rathwellin) that it wouldn't unbalance the game completely, I would once again call the attention to the fact that I TRY TO MAKE THIS A LESS POWERFUL BASIS ABILITY. And since this is a permanent bonus, we must be a bit more cautious by using opcode immunities. While immnuity to Confusion and Domination is useful against various opponents and can give a boost in some situations, an immunity vs. Level Drain makes Vampires easy prey for all. I still think this is a considerable thing.

I guess it's in how you look at it.

By TOB, even by the end of SOA, having one cleric in your party makes vampires into a minor nuisance, as they should be. The only way to "fix" that is to make vampires immune to turning and/or to get rid of the anti-undead Cleric spells. You could do that, but then you'd both be nerfing one of the cleric's prime functions and going for a comletely out of genre solution, as basic Vampires are almost always only a threat to unarmed low level characters in fiction.

I don't see making a high level Monk immune to a nuisance monster's special attack as a problem.

However, it is a matter of taste.

[Schatten]

iirc, tgm said he wanted, in the distant future, do something about turning undead. imo its too powerfull. mighty monsters, as vamps are, can be turned away or charmed but not explode. and i also have to say that level draining is nasty (i hate it. thats why i hate vamps) and a monk immune to it is not a good idea.

[BobTokyo]

iirc, tgm said he wanted, in the distant future, do something about turning undead. imo its too powerfull. mighty monsters, as vamps are, can be turned away or charmed but not explode. and i also have to say that level draining is nasty (i hate it. thats why i hate vamps) and a monk immune to it is not a good idea.

Vampires are only "mighty monsters" if the DM or writer wants them to be. In most vampire fiction and film vampires are pathetic monsters, killed by the score by any competent foes. Only rare "master" vampires are a threat. Yes, Dracula was a threat against a bunch of low level foes; the Vamps in BG are going against legendary heroes.

95% of the work of difficulty increasing mods could be taken care of by just quadrupling the number of XP needed for each level. Those who want to play low level characters going against deadly monsters could do so, while those who prefer the fast advancement of the original game could have it. Just a thought.

[Feanor]

I have a simple reason for this: all the other versions of this ability (both Illaera's or Imoen's uses this method, e.g. they make the creature immune to divination for a duration.

The other versions of this ability are specially designed for those characters (and we could blame their bhaalspawn taint for that) and have nothing to do with their class. Take into consideration the fact that you create an ability presumed to be a common HLA for all the monks.

Thanks for the notification, but I'm sure you didn't think I'd simply copy-paste it without "translating" it to the language of BG2...

Well, it is you the one who said to focus of the description of perfect self from IWD2.

To be honest, that is what I intend to do. Of course not a 100% copy of the 3rdE ability, but something similar. Maybe without the damage reduction?

Immunity to mind affecting spells it's a good idea, but, about damage reduction, the monk already has Chant... Instead of damage reduction, TG, what do you say about an immunity to fear ?

[Littiz]

Probably the most fitting effect is Immunity to mind affecting stuff.

I'd still be cautious since it would be permanent (as TGM says) and all other passive, "introductive" HLAs have rather weak effect. I'd prefer to remain on that course.

Also, in general, the argument "it's the only class not having X" gives me very little desire to grant it X now.
Balance is also in the fact that each character has not access to some stuff, and need other party members to cover such areas.

Edited by Littiz, 19 August 2004 - 05:28 AM.