175 replies to this topic

[T.G.Maestro]

Minor change:
Faster Than the Eye now requires Greater Evasion as a prerequisite, and Inner Time requires Faster Than the Eye.

This way IT can only be accessed in 4 steps.

The one thing that worries me is balance. I think that collectively this HLA list is really an upgrade power wise for the monk. I'm still mulling over if I think that it's too much or not

The one and only thing I found overpowered in this table was Inner Time, and I admit it. It was meant to be an uber-ability though (You'll feel like Neo in Matrix! ).

Edited by T.G.Maestro, 20 May 2004 - 12:05 AM.

[T.G.Maestro]

A slight problem: I cannot remove the Sanctuary visual from Insignificance, so players will have to live with it.

[Feanor]

The one and only thing I found overpowered in this table was Inner Time, and I admit it. It was meant to be an uber-ability though (You'll feel like Neo in Matrix!  ).

No more powerful than wizard's foresight, Maestro (that's the HLA master, I think).

A question now : Insignificance does not ressembles too much with invisibility or hiding in shadows effect ?

[Jinnai]

I think this would be better if the length was increased, but certain enimies were immune to this (the more perceptive creatures/beings)

You might as well notice that this innate ability uses the Sanctuary effect from the priest-spell. This partially solves your problem Jinnai: some monsters or tougher opponents have scripted invisibility detection, and will easily spot you in this state (the same goes for the invisible state of Ethereal). The Five, Liches and Dragons are good examples for this. No mater, I'd accept a longer duration, how about 1Turn +1round/3 levels?

Don't you mean 1 turn +1 turn/3 levels? otherwise that would be extremely potent.

Like i said though, this should be dispurtable like a mage casting a spell if its possible.

I nearly finished the work on the new monk files, I'm currently finalizing the icons and visuals for the HLAs. Here is the proposed new HLA table for monks, with all the prerequisites and other goodies included:

1.: Shadowless Kick
2.: Dragon Fist (requires Shadowless Kick)
3.: Tiger Strike (requires Dragon Fist)
4.: Inner Time (requires Faster Than the Eye)
5.: Finger of Venom (requires Dragon Fist, Evil only, excluded by Second Wind)
6.: Second Wind (requires Monk Regeneration, Good only, excluded by Finger of Venom)
7.: Evasion
8.: Greater Evasion (requires Evasion, Monk version)
9.: Insignificance (requires Diamond Soul)
10.: Chant (requires Diamond Soul)
11.: Ethereal (requires Diamond Soul)
12.: Faster Than the Eye (requires Greater Evasion)
13.: Monk Regeneration (requires Diamond Soul)
14.: Diamond Soul

I'm really not fond of chant, but you should know by now why that is.

[Jinnai]

A question now : Insignificance does not ressembles too much with invisibility or hiding in shadows effect ?

That's because you're not invisable. You're just...insignifgant to the eyes of most people, ie their gaze just slips right by you.

[T.G.Maestro]

That's because you're not invisable. You're just...insignifgant to the eyes of most people, ie their gaze just slips right by you

Correct.

Don't you mean 1 turn +1 turn/3 levels? otherwise that would be extremely potent

Actually, the current duration (1 Turn + 1round/3 levels) seems enough according to my tests. 60-90 seconds in the game means a LONG time, many battles last only 10 rounds or less. And if I'd greatly increase the duration of this ability (which would be reasonable indeed from a logical point, I agree here Jinnai), it wouldn't force players to sacrifice additional points on this HLA . If you want a really long insignificant state, then simply pick this ability at least twice, and re-activate it before the duration expires.

Like i said though, this should be dispurtable like a mage casting a spell if its possible.

You mean the insignificant state? It ends as soon as the monk makes an action that is considered "non-defensive". I'm not ure which spells or effects remove the sanctuary effect though - Dispel Magic and True Sight maybe.

No more powerful than wizard's foresight, Maestro (that's the HLA master, I think).

Heh, you could have a discussion about this with Caedwyr - he told me many-many times he finds Foresight one of the less useful HLAs ever...

[Feanor]

Don't you mean 1 turn +1 turn/3 levels? otherwise that would be extremely potent.

By the way, how long it lasts one turn ?

That's because you're not invisable. You're just...insignifgant to the eyes of most people, ie their gaze just slips right by you.

Yes, but the effect is the same, despite of those "subtilities". The opponents don't see you.

Heh, you could have a discussion about this with Caedwyr - he told me many-many times he finds Foresight one of the less useful HLAs ever...

What ? A HLA which gives you a 15 AC bonus and lowers your saving throws to -20 ? That seems powerful even for an AO's avatar.

[T.G.Maestro]

By the way, how long it lasts one turn ?

10 rounds (1 minute in real time).

but the effect is the same, despite of those "subtilities". The opponents don't see you

No, these are different effects. Sanctuary allows you to use various defensive actions like spellcasting, innates, etc. without breaking the "invisibility". The classic invisibility effect won't allow this, only the use of potions and some innates. I'm not sure about Divination effects though - they shouldn't affect Sanctuary, since it is not a real illusion.

[Feanor]

1 turn = 10 rounds (1 minute in real time).

If so, how could Jinnai suggest that alteration quoted below ? 1 turn for every 3 levels ?

Don't you mean 1 turn +1 turn/3 levels? otherwise that would be extremely potent.

[T.G.Maestro]

You should ask him...

[Jinnai]

I was thinking in 3rd edition terms for rounds and since i was using them and they naturnally don't have turns, i figured they were 1 miniute in length. That's how i reversed them.

they shouldn't affect Sanctuary, since it is not a real illusion

TDispel magic shouldn't for this affect as its not magical in nature. True sight might work, but this is a powerful ability and IMO beyond the scope of what true sight is capable of.

You mean the insignificant state? It ends as soon as the monk makes an action that is considered "non-defensive". I'm not ure which spells or effects remove the sanctuary effect though - Dispel Magic and True Sight maybe.

Not exactly...well yes that should happen, but that's not what i meant. If its possible, and I'm not sure it is, i'm saying that like you have a chance of disrupting the spellcasting of a mage by attacking him successfully, this ability should be the same for atleast melee combatants as they are right nearby and its hard to make yourself insignifgant when you're getting whaled upon by someone with a big sword. I dunno if its possible to do this for inates though.

[T.G.Maestro]

If its possible, and I'm not sure it is, i'm saying that like you have a chance of disrupting the spellcasting of a mage by attacking him successfully, this ability should be the same for atleast melee combatants as they are right nearby and its hard to make yourself insignifgant when you're getting whaled upon by someone with a big sword. I dunno if its possible to do this for inates though

I don't know either.

[Rathwellin the Bard]

Innates can be disrupted just like normal spellcasting.

I know. The last time I tried to take a solo Refinements Monk against Improved I and crew it happened a *lot* ... lost several shadowless kicks this way along with chant & some others.

[Jinnai]

Ok the setup time should be made long enough for someone within melee range to have a chance to disrupt the monk then.

[T.G.Maestro]

Innates can be disrupted just like normal spellcasting

Oops, sorry, I wasn't referring to this - I misunderstood Jinnai's question.
Of course, innates are disruptable, just like spells.
I'll set the casting time of Insignificance to 1 round then.

[Jinnai]

Oops, sorry, I wasn't referring to this - I misunderstood Jinnai's question.

What were you refering to?

I'll set the casting time of Insignificance to 1 round then.

Sounds reasonable then.

[T.G.Maestro]

Actually I had in mind that if the monk goes too close to someone who is looking for him, his insignificant state might end... but this wouldn't be implementable, so forget it.

[T.G.Maestro]

Not yet, but I agree that they should. I fear we cannot do much to change this ATM however.

[the bigg]

No, monk's animation cannot support 2 handed weapons, 2 weapons or weapon + shield.