175 replies to this topic

[T.G.Maestro]

Giving monks primarily passive bonuses would make them fairly unique among the fighting classes.

If these ideas become reality, they'll have at least 2 passives (Diamond Soul and Monk Regeneration), and thats already unique - no more Refinements class/kit has more than one basic passive.

Keep the Stances. They're very nice. So what if Balthasar can use them? There's no reason that the PC can't develop them on their own, so to speak

I'd rather tend towards this option too... but only if the problem with the SE (portrait) icons can be solved somehow - Shadow and Lunar Stance would require special effect icons of their own.

Why does Diamond Soul make you an extraplanar creature?

Don't ask me, ask Bioware/Black Isle (or even 3rdE)! I only copied the effects of the 20th level passive monk ability called Perfect Self. Actually, he won't become extraplanar, it is only counted as such in game-terms. He becomes an outsider in nature.

if snatch arrows doesn't work as it is then maybe it should be changed to a pure 100% physical mirror with shorter duration

Again, Inner Time will take care of this problem. It has a simple 100% Physical Mirror effect as well.

Oh and about the debate over 'inner time', yep im not the one who's actually trying out the ability so if it does in fact make the monk that powerful then all I've got to say is woohoo bout time monks got some luvin

As Caedwyr said, its very "matrixy" B) ...

[Jinnai]

Ok...

Diamond Soul: Shouldn't be a HLA should be an inate at level 20 along with the other stuff.

And he actually doesn't become an extraplanar creature. He becomes a magical creature of his native plane (prime material plane of Fauren).

I'm also with the idea the stances should be dropped or changed. I think something else other than stances should be used. IMO something dealing with elements of wind, water and fire, or if not those than to do with various other ki attacks.

The good/bad abilities aren't really overpowered as much as anything. If -10 consitution is too much the inital drop can be lowered a bit. Really the problem is my LN monk wouldn't get an ability all his own (and LN is what i play most), although i do have an idea.

Inner Time sounds good except that immunity to backstabs should be given to heightened senses which should be one of the prereqs for this ability, although his AC should also increase.

Keep the Stances. They're very nice. So what if Balthasar can use them? There's no reason that the PC can't develop them on their own, so to speak.

Its exactly because Balthazar can use them that they should be dropped. Because he would have obviously had different training as a monk than the hero. So in his training, it relied much more on the type of ones stance than other aspects.

As to what i meantioned before the aspect of Diamond Soul turning the monk into a magical creature is because the ability to control his body is unparralled by any mortal being and it changes the very nature of what he is to no longer be pure human or pure elf or pure dwarf.

Lastly, I don't see how a monk can become invisible. This is going overboard, imho.

The monk from what i've gathered does not become invisable in the sense a wizard becomes invisable. Instead he becomes "ignored." The best parrallel i can think of is the soulless ones from Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time series where you're eyes and mind seemed to simply slip past them.

[Littiz]

looking through the snatch arrows ability I'm kinda confused as to how it works. First off there are three levels of indirection before you get to the 33%physical mirror effect and a cast on condition. Is it something like cast on condition:hit, do a physical mirror? and where does LI#snch.spl fit in? It seems like in order to snatch one arrow at a time you're re-activating the effect every second for 6 seconds or something like that...am i close?
If it is indeed not workign correctly then why not change the ability to something that's more implementable...its a fact of life that the infinity engine imposes some restrictions on what our imaginations can come up with, and I for one would rather have a simple well-working ability that's not quite the effect I want than a 'tricky' one. Absolutely NO criticism is intended, I think what you've done is wonderful, i'm just suggesting that if snatch arrows doesn't work as it is then maybe it should be changed to a pure 100% physical mirror with shorter duration or something like that

Oh and about the debate over 'inner time', yep im not the one who's actually trying out the ability so if it does in fact make the monk that powerful then all I've got to say is woohoo bout time monks got some luvin

Don't remember exactly without checking, anyway one is the effect placed by the HLA (through AP_ in the table). The rest are the actual effects which recursively cast the physical mirror effect, with that 33% chance.

I assure it did work in my last tests.
Yet, first we shoud remind all that the ramdom effects generator has always been a bit crappy in BG2. Don't tell me you haven't ever witnessed some "impossible" results...
Second, those effects don't list all the possible arrows, just some types.
In truth I just copied the ones I found in the first (non working! ) implementation of the ability, by TGM.
For what I know, +2 arrows might be missing from the list.

We will revise this ability better, at any rate.

[T.G.Maestro]

For what I know, +2 arrows might be missing from the list

No, they are not. +2 arroes use the same projectile as +3 or +1 arrows. Take a look at the original Physical Mirror spell .

[Feanor]

[/QUOTE]Diamond Soul
The monk has turned himself with training and quasi-magical abilities to the point that he becomes a magical creature. He is forevermore treated as an outsider (extraplanar creature) rather than as a humanoid. For instance, charm effects won't affect him anymore and can only be harmed by weapons of +1 enchantment level, or higher. A monk with Diamond Soul will become vulnerable to spells that repel extraplanar creatures.[QUOTE]

If he can be harm by +1 weapons, I don't see it's purpose. When a character achieves HLA level, all his enemies have at least +2 weapons.


[QUOTE]Lunar Stance
As an outsider, the monk can achieve a state where he becomes immune to many magical effects for a limited duration. Spells and spell-like abilities that hinder movement and free action (like Maze, Stun, Hold, etc.), instant death effects and those that manipulate the mind like Confusion or Domination will have no affect on the monk. In the first 2 rounds of Lunar Stance he becomes immune to the effects of Time Stop and Imprisonment as well. The duration of this ability is 4 rounds.
Lunar Stance cannot be used together with other monk Stances.[/QUOTE]

Immunity to Time Stop ??? Maestro, should I quote your almost 10 pages of arguments against that ? What happened with the old Maestro ?


[QUOTE]Its exactly because Balthazar can use them that they should be dropped. Because he would have obviously had different training as a monk than the hero. So in his training, it relied much more on the type of ones stance than other aspects.
[/QUOTE]

Here I think Jinnai has the bad tendency of applying the asian rules for monks in AD&D world. Following his reasons, I could say that not all the fighters (or thieves, or sorcerers and so on) should have the same HLA because they had different trainings.
I also think you should keep the stances.

[T.G.Maestro]

If he can be harm by +1 weapons, I don't see it's purpose. When a character achieves HLA level, all his enemies have at least +2 weapons.

There is clearly a typo in the description - Diamond Soul should make monks immune to +1 weapons.

Immunity to Time Stop ??? Maestro, should I quote your almost 10 pages of arguments against that ? What happened with the old Maestro ?

Yes, as surprising as it may seem, I tend to accept Timestop immunity - with heavy limits. I tested this a few times against mages and creatures who use Time Stop, and I found that if one allows the monk to act freely for the entire duration (4 rounds), the spellcaster is almost doomed - or at least his/her most powerful spells are lost due to spell failure (IF he survives 2-3 blows from a monk, since spellcaster tend to cast physical protections after they dished out some heavy offensive magic, to avoid running out of the low duration - think on PfMW for example). In its current version (2 rounds - or even better 10 seconds) TS immunity grants the monk the chance to distract the mage for a short time, and prevent his first action(s), but won't have enough time to ruin its complete set of actions during the TS - the mage will have at least 14 seconds left, where he can continue spellcasting unmolested. And don't forget that this is the best possible result for a monk - if he/she turns into Lunar Stance a few seconds earlier than the TS is fired, additional seconds will be lost. Again, don't take these as finished abilities - they are experimental. And my experiments suggest that Time Stop immunity can be kept IF it is strictly controlled and nerfed. It still grants a most unique flavour to this ability, but on the other side it won't allow the player to completely cheat the TSs of unsuspecting spellcasters . Balthazar's version will be kept with the full duration TS immunity of course.

[Rathwellin the Bard]

TG the cheese with Timestop immunity is not in acting during your foe's Timestops. It's pretty rough to time that right.

Instead it becomes *very* powerful when the Monk is teamed with a Mage or Sorcerer. With one person controlling both the party can have two members acting in a friendly Timestop. Plus since everyone is 'held' in a Timestop all the Monks blows would hit....

Ouch.

[Rathwellin the Bard]

Oh, and just for the record, while I would like different stances from Balthazar, if you keep them I see no problem with reusing the Improved Invisibility icon for shadow stance.

[T.G.Maestro]

Oh, and just for the record, while I would like different stances from Balthazar, if you keep them I see no problem with reusing the Improved Invisibility icon for shadow stance

Don't tell me - tell Littiz!

[Schatten]

Instead it becomes *very* powerful when the Monk is teamed with a Mage or Sorcerer. With one person controlling both the party can have two members acting in a friendly Timestop. Plus since everyone is 'held' in a Timestop all the Monks blows would hit....

Ouch.

that was one thing that was in my mind, too.
ts should be unimmuniable (or whatever )

[Littiz]

Bah.
You're able to say anything and its opposite in a two-days window
Now even Time Stop immunity, go figure...

Weren't we looking for a "new standard and fitting form" of the game?
I feel like on a water bed here

Anyway the One Big Mistake of all of these posts is that they seem to assume that a Version 2 is actually coming shortly.
Maybe if I called it "The Fabled Version 2" you'd understand something more about its current scheduling...

EDIT:
@TGM, try to focus on debugging instead of new stuff that won't go in

Edited by Littiz, 03 May 2004 - 04:47 AM.

[T.G.Maestro]

Instead it becomes *very* powerful when the Monk is teamed with a Mage or Sorcerer. With one person controlling both the party can have two members acting in a friendly Timestop. Plus since everyone is 'held' in a Timestop all the Monks blows would hit....

Good point, I agree. Don't be afraid, I won't cry a river if we have to drop TS immunity , my only intention with its nerfed addition was to keep some of this Stance's uniqe bonuses.

You're able to say anything and its opposite in a two-days window

Absolutely. While I can hardly be convinced sometimes, I'm always open for new ways to improve something. I wouldn't say I'm satisfied with too many things for too long...

Weren't we looking for a "new standard and fitting form" of the game?

Steel your heart - we are still looking for it .

Anyway the One Big Mistake of all of these posts is that they seem to assume that a Version 2 is actually coming shortly.

just to quote some of my intentional words from these posts:
- plans;
- ideas;
- sketches;
- future;
- sometime;
- experimental;
- etc.
Should there be more warnings?

@TGM, try to focus on debugging instead of new stuff that won't go in

Actually, I'm debugging everything I can: Energy Storm, Divine Shell, Volcano (partial solution ), Skald HLAs...
don't spellholdstudios.netspellholdstudios.netblame me for thinking on future elements..!

[Tydirium]

Isn't immunity to Time Stop one of the abilities you gain from the pools of light in the Ascension?

Maybe one of these days, I'll export a PC from the end of Ascension into the beginning of Candlekeep in BG1tutu.

How's that for cheesy powergaming?

[Tydirium]

I was thinking, if we decide that we like the Oversight Monk HLAs better, can we install them over this version?

[T.G.Maestro]

Isn't immunity to Time Stop one of the abilities you gain from the pools of light in the Ascension?

Indeed. That ability's name is Focus, and it grants complete immunity to Time Stop for 6 rounds.

[T.G.Maestro]

I was thinking, if we decide that we like the Oversight Monk HLAs better, can we install them over this version?

Technically yes, but I won't advice it for many reasons. First, it would clearly disturb the whole system of these new tables - we suggest using them as a whole, or not at all. They were meant to be a completely new system of HLAs, and only having one or two of the new tables simply kills the main goal of this component.
Of course, I'd never even consider using another HLA table once I played with these... (sorry folks, I had to add this )

[Jinnai]

Here I think Jinnai has the bad tendency of applying the asian rules for monks in AD&D world. Following his reasons, I could say that not all the fighters (or thieves, or sorcerers and so on) should have the same HLA because they had different trainings.
I also think you should keep the stances.

You are of course entitled to your own opinion
But, i have proof to back up my claims. Everything in Fauren has been based to some extent or another on Earth mythology and practices, obviously nothing is 100%, but to ignore this is like ignoring that all the reality TV shows on now are based on original Survivor.

And i still havent seen something for my LN monk to take since he isn't pure enough to want to take Golden Bell ability nor is he the type to want to poison people.

Either the ability i mentioned maybe in the other thread..,"Body Like the Water" or another i had in mind would be nice. Here's the other.

Yin-Yang Scism Attack (yes it can defiantly use a better name)

This makes to copies of the monk with all abilites except this one (they could have the equivalent HLA, ie golden bell or finger of venom) and the original monk is unable to do anything for the rest of combat. The exception is that one monk is LG and the other is LE. They would be controllable mostly, but at the beginning of each turn a check is made ad if it fails, they instead attack each other to the exlusion of anything else (unless it gets in their way). If one of them dies before the duration is over, the constituion of the original monk is lowered by 1 for 24 hours. If they die from the other monk while outside the players control, the loss is perment. The ability lasts 10 rounds.

Edited by Jinnai, 03 May 2004 - 09:09 PM.

[Feanor]

just to quote some of my intentional words from these posts:
- plans;
- ideas;
- sketches;
- future;
- sometime;
- experimental;
- etc. 
Should there be more warnings?

No, only Littiz is so panicked.