347 replies to this topic

[kozand]

Good people love good people.

No redemption for Irenicus not even an Ascension Irenicus. He is dead he SHOULD be destroyed because he said: TO DIE HERE IS TO CEASE TO EXIST.

No bringing back THE FIVE.

No incest Imoen love, no Sarevok romance. Bhaal is God so what? Would u bed with your sister even if your father's are different?

No good PC loves Valen.

I know I may sound puritan but I am not, I just don't like exegerataions and I do respect people's wish and if they want to make a mod about Valen Romance/Shadow Lord Romance ect. good for them. I just stick with DMG's good role playing suggestions.

I don't like big boss always return, I don't think PC should romance with every rock lying on street.

I don't like forced scenarios. I don't like cheesy weapons, stats, SK and whatnot.

I don't think this is called role playing anymore. It is more like inconsistent wild fantasy. I... don't like uncontrolled fantasies. For me it is a futile and vain effort.

That said I leave u to your thoughts. Because there is freedom of ideas and freedom of will.

PS: I enjoy Ascension or Redemption. Good mods and congrats for creators. But in MY official version no raise BOSS again happens.

PS2: It is a protest. Heck people protest war, war happens. Nobodoy force me to play every mod but I voice my opinion too. I love fantasy not fables.

[Riscorn]

I'm a simple person. I have simple wants, desires and needs. I have simple tastes. Most of these things are directly related to these bloody hormone things. Many people on here have been arging for and against a Valen romance. I have to wonder WHY people are even bothering to argue against it. If you dont want to use the romance, just say no. Its not a terribly important piece of the game, however entertaining it is

If Wes wants to add a romance/seduction/whatever he can. He can have her running around naked if he wants, hell, I give him my full support for that! If you dont wanna play the romance it doesnt matter. I know however, from reading this and from my own friends, that a romance option would be very very welcome. Sick or not, there is a demand Wes. Go for it.

[The Outlaw Torn]

I'd be tempted to think of Vampires as having even LESS 'humanity' than Githyanki or Beholders. Gith and Beholders do things for reasons; they have reasoning minds, they have emotions, a culture and belief system of their own. With enough work, you could begin to understand them. Vampires are intinctively bloodthirsty beasts - at least, Valen makes it clear she is. Vampires sometimes do things that canot be explained except through animalistic instinct. They're not 'human' any more. I don't think Vampires in the Forgottem Realms are capable of prolonged affection.

Again, I'm not too sure on the FR version of vampires, but I have a different take on this. I'm not quite sure why you think that vamps wouldn't have reasoning minds, emotions or belief systems. Granted, it's likely they wouldn't have much of a culture, but that's because they're generally pretty rare and by nature loners. But for the rest, I argue that they still have those. Look at Bodhi as an example. As much of a bloodthirsty beast as you can get, and yet still has clear motives and reasoning patterns. Evil ones, of course, but still there. The vamps in Bodhi's domain have very distinct and seperate personalities and motives, and are shown to be able to think through things (such as Bodhi's plotting regarding the PC) just as well as humans. I think that if they can, to quote from the Imoen Romance mod, 'hate and kill each other, why not love each other' as well? Circumstances are slightly different, but still applicable. To feel anger or passion towards a hunt requires the same emotional 'base' as feeling love or sexual passion, so why not? Passion is what makes us human, so I'd think this degree of passion that is in vampires would make them just as human as anything else. Then there's the added degree that they physically (at least outwardly) are human, which is a step up from a Beholder .

An interesting alternative take that I found on vampires was with Vampire: The Masquerade. Although the vampires in that still had consciences and could go either for good or evil, something that FR vampires can't do, what did happen to them was that they were incapable of producing new emotions within themselves, and had to feel something by remembering what it was like when they were human. I think this angle could be taken with Valen, unless it screws with the AD&D mythology for vampires too much. What if Valen is evil but does what she does not out of the thrill that she gets from doing them but because she wants to and has no reason not to. Sort of like Iago in Othello, it could just be that her motives are spurious and she could be changed rather easily to doing things that weren't quite as destructive as randomly killing people is. By the same logic, could she not have a relationship with the PC to rekindle whatever she had felt as a human? I'm not saying that she'd do it because she's desperately unhappy as a vampire or any of that nonsense, but perhaps because she enjoyed it as human and wants to remember it again.

Although of course a redemption is out of the question, as that happens with enough NPCs anyway, the opposite path could be taken where she takes the PC and turns them to become more destructive/evil. Did anyone here watch an episode of Buffy (I'm a Buffy freak, so I make references to it quite often ) back in season 3 where Buffy and Faith went on an ass-kicking rampage, killing a whole lot of vamps for the love of the hunt? It wouldn't perfectly transfer over, but to a limited extent that could work. Valen convincing the PC to 'loosen up' and go kill some people could provide for some very interesting conversations, not to mention a fun killing rampage (as those things go anyway).

Anyway, that's some ideas. I know I ramble a little, but hopefully it's more or less coherent.

[Riscorn]

And another question is added. Can vampires/vampyres ever be TRUELY sated. The opinion has been put forward (dont ask where, really bad memory) that vampires dont just feed on the blood. They feed on the power that they have over other, supposedly lesser beings in the moment of feeding. Its something worth thinking about. The power in that moment would be on par with a drug. What does the human race desire over all else? Power. Its what we are. And vampires are at least part human.

Still, I cast my vote for a romance.
.
.
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Stop looking at me like that!!!

[Littiz]

I add again my unwanted comment on this topic, as I feel people here is a little confused on the matter
of goodness:)

I've (role)played a couple of times a character entirely inspired by Miyazaki's heroine Nausicaa.
who's a girl inherently good at heart, feels (I'm not saying shows..) pity for everyone,
and actually even *unwillingly* moves (and "redeems") anyone who crosses her path.
Yes, *disgustingly* good
I believe that such a type fits well even the BG story, as only such a person could pretend to become
a God of Goodness. Even more: only such an extraordinary person would really refuse divinity, only to
remain close to the loved, suffering mortal beings.
What would think about Valen this character?
These would be the questions:
"Is Valen suffering right now? Did she suffer in the past? Did she want to become like this?"
As long as we're talking about a sentient being, such questions aren't senseless.
Takin' her in the party could happen, if she initially doesn't prove to be a threat.
After witnessing an actual slaughter of innocents, killing her might become a priority, but
at least an attempt to free her from vampirism could be tried first.
This can be done for the lovers, after all it's already in the game.

Some would see all this as a forcing, I don't.
And, as others noticed, an "alternative path" wouldn't prevent evil parties to keep her the old way.
It would only *add* to the mod.
I frankly hope Wes will consider this possibility, I would try this mod immediately:)
Redeeming a vampire, that would be the highest deed
(No, I've NEVER played evil, not even started a try )

[serjeLeBlade]

This can be done for the lovers, after all it's already in the game

bah. the lovers have Aerie and the rest can redeem Viconia fer crissake.

Last I heard, vampirism was pretty permanent. Redemption means a stake thru her heart. How's that fer a happy ending?

Er... I think Littiz was saying that the pcs can bring *their* lovers (i.e. Aerie, Anomen, Jaheira, Viconia, Kelsey and Sola -- a lot of people indeed) back from vampirism, after they defeat Bodhi.
So that can be done, in this game at least.
(Viconia is evil, so it can be done with evil people too).
And since Valen is a "creation" of Bodhi, like all the others vampirized romanceable npcs, what works with them should work for Valen too.
(It makes sense, imho)

But maybe, the whole thing actually needs a romance (love... as a reagent) for it to work.
(And why a good character should love Valen escapes me anyway...)

[Littiz]

@Cybersuirt:

likewise, what do you not understand about evil? Shoo!

Don't really know...

bg is rife with opportunities for good folk.

And for bad folk. You can basically do what you want, even slay *every* single being in Faerun,
so, what's the point?
Also, why the opposition at all, given the fact that a "de-vamp" option wouldn't prevent you from keeping Valen as a vampire?
You wouldn't lose your "opportunities" here.
The only loss would be that of the used time for Wes
I frankly don't see the purpose of these arguments
I myself install the Item Mod and use only the items I like, for instance

Last I heard, vampirism was pretty permanent. Redemption means a stake thru her heart. How's that fer a happy ending?

Last I heard was with Solaufein, and he was de-vampirized pretty well B)
Anyway, a bad ending could even be accepted, but I'd like to have the "opportunity" to try

[serjeLeBlade]

but the major different is that our romantic interest "has not yet (been?) turned", Valen has.  

Huh? (can I say "huh"?)
I don't understand, what do you mean with "turned"?
I must be missing something here... (goes to browse some ingame books about vampirizing and devampirizing)

EDIT:
Aaahhh ... I found it. The journal of Tomass Sangui. "Complete" and "incomplete" turning.
Quite cryptic. But okay, I can accept the idea that Valen's state can be considered more... severe than the one of a poor sod that's been vampirized just yesterday.

[serjeLeBlade]

-chuckles-
as a matter of fact, that's just what I was doing. ..and SK won't let me cut and paste from it

Bad, bad SK!

(see my edit above)

[Littiz]

@Serje:
As for why one shoud try to "redeem" her, as I've said, pity is enough:
for the actual being or for the former, at least

@Cybersquirt:
ah, the handy no-return point argument
Well, maybe you're right, I don't know if there's ground for a succesful de-vamp upon Valen..
Nothing is beyond return in BG world -especially in the hands of a modder- but you have a point.
Still, *my* point was that without any chances of roleplaying for a good char, "good" players
are forced to stay far from the mod.

the point is that is outside the game. There is only one (that I can recall off-hand), okay 2 evil quests, both involving dragons, that net any real feeling of evil RP'ing.

Still I don't see how adding an alternative path for Valen could harm *you*

bah.

This argument leaves me bleeding on the floor...
So you win here, keep your bloodlusting unredeemable Valen all for yourself