347 replies to this topic

[Auvrin]

Something that would allow the pc to talk with her, know her more deeply, and maybe share something...

That can be done without a relationship, romance, seduction, whatever you want to call it. A character doesn't have to have a relationship/seduction to be in depth. You can still have alot of PC and NPC banter without one. In Valen's case.. There are so many alternatives on learning more about her, or just using her for your own goals.

Again, what about the character Valen would make you want to romance her? What is it that she says or does in character that would lead you to believe she should have a relationship/seduction of the PC?

[Trau]

I also don't see why you think of it as 'lording' over others by expressing an opinion.   Unless that's all you can come up with for an argument as to why there should be a romance.

Unless I am wrong, this thread was created for people to debate whether or not there should be a romance. I don't see why there is any debate; enough people are in favor of it. By arguing against it, you are keeping people from having it.

Here's a better question for you then.  Why should she have a romance?  Instead of saying why she shouldn't or the same old 'because options are good', give reasons why she should have one.  What about her in character leads someone to believe she should have a romance?

Because she has great potential. I've seen fantastic scenarios here for her, and I've heard people say she wouldn't do this or she wouldn't do that. There are no limits to the imagination; anything can make sense with things such as this. Who woulda thunk Viconia would switch alignments? Valen could do the same, seeing as she has some inner need of being a subordinate. The pc could turn her good, or to evil, whatever their wish. Though I think it would be interesting if only a paladin or lawful good character could be capable of 'turning' her. There is just so much potential here.

[Trau]

Again, what about the character Valen would make you want to romance her?

What is there about any character that makes you want to romance them? She is an interesting character, unlike Aerie and Jaheira. And what on earth made anyone want to romance Solaufein? His transition was just as unlikely as Valen's may be, but with good writing, it was made believable.

[serjeLeBlade]

Yes but why then Valen? All the NPCs could use a little more interaction with charname.

I would be interested specifically in a Valen romance-or-relationship because Valen is the only npc listed as "Evil" that actually acts evil, for a change.

Playing a truly evil character and romacing, say, Viconia would be laughable, from my PoV. If I choose to play evil, I would like to play a bhaalspwn who enjoys turning into the Slayer to wreak havock... (a Bhaalspawn that "works properly", to say so)
And I would feel the need of an appropriate kind of "partner" (or ally or lover or companion or whatever).
This is just my pov, but Valen would be the best, imho.

[Auvrin]

Trau.. You didn't give any reasons as to what would lead a person to feel Valen as a character would have a romance. Yes, any character can go anywhere you want it too, but that doesn't mean it always goes together in the end.

What I'm asking for are key examples in her actions or dialogue as a character, that would actually fit in for a romance. You can't compare one NPC to another. More so when dealing with player made, and Black Isle made.

Valen showed nothing but a cold blooded killer. She wanted death, and she made it clear that she would have to be on a tight leash to keep from doing so. Valen took matters into her own hands several times, forcing the PC to take the evil path wether they wanted to or not. She was clearly not meant for a 'paladin' party or anyone of good alignment, she barely even meets the standards of most neutral characters.

As to the comment about keeping it from happening? How? How is expressing an opinion keeping a person with a free mind from doing what they want? In other words, if the majority says yes, the rest should fall in line and just go along. Doesn't work that way. From what Valen is now, it looks as though she was meant to be an evil NPC.

Simple little reminder however. All these mods have been made by people. They aren't paid for what they do, nor does it seem they even get much respect out of it from the mass as a whole. Not one single modder has to do anything but what they want to, nor should their own personal goals for a mod ever change to the demands of the public. The public never agrees with itself.

[Michel]

Simple little reminder however. All these mods have been made by people. They aren't paid for what they do, nor does it seem they even get much respect out of it from the mass as a whole. Not one single modder has to do anything but what they want to, nor should their own personal goals for a mod ever change to the demands of the public. The public never agrees with itself.

Oh boy, this part is so so so true!

This goes in my signature!

[Trau]

What I'm asking for are key examples in her actions or dialogue as a character, that would actually fit in for a romance.

She is a born servant. She could easily be the slave and/or lover of an evil pc once Bodhi fell.

You can't compare one NPC to another.  More so when dealing with player made, and Black Isle made.

Yes, I can.

Valen showed nothing but a cold blooded killer.  She wanted death, and she made it clear that she would have to be on a tight leash to keep from doing so.  Valen took matters into her own hands several times, forcing the PC to take the evil path wether they wanted to or not.  She was clearly not meant for a 'paladin' party or anyone of good alignment, she barely even meets the standards of most neutral characters.

She took matters into her own hands only relative to the pc. Her commander was Bodhi at the time, she only moderately listened to the pc.

As to the comment about keeping it from happening?  How?  How is expressing an opinion keeping a person with a free mind from doing what they want?

As I said before, this is a debate for whether or not the romance/relationship should be made(unless I am mistaken). If people argue against i, I assume Mr. Weimer won't make it. Not everyone is quite as talented as he is.

In other words, if the majority says yes, the rest should fall in line and just go along.  Doesn't work that way.  From what Valen is now, it looks as though she was meant to be an evil NPC.

That's not what I'm saying. And as it were, what is wrong with her being an evil romance? As I said before, she is born to serve and is seemingly very weak in the mind, very easy to influence.

Not one single modder has to do anything but what they want to, nor should their own personal goals for a mod ever change to the demands of the public.  The public never agrees with itself.

I don't imagine that Mr. Weimer would ask us what we think just to laugh at us. He obviously takes into consideration our opinions.

[alustriel]

As to the comment about keeping it from happening?  How?  How is expressing an opinion keeping a person with a free mind from doing what they want?

As I said before, this is a debate for whether or not the romance/relationship should be made(unless I am mistaken). If people argue against i, I assume Mr. Weimer won't make it. Not everyone is quite as talented as he is.

I hate to break it to you Trau but you just made his argument for him. He asked you how expressing his opinion that it shouldn't be done was wrong of him and you turned right around and said, "..this is a debate for whether or not the romance/relationship should be made...."

Bingo. This is a debate FOR and AGAINST. Auvrin has every right to debate against it as much as you have a right to argue for it. Telling him that he shouldn't argue against it in a thread specifically *for* that reason is pretty unbelievable. What should be done next? Station a guard at the entrance to the thread to weed out the nay-sayers so you'll get what you want? If Wes didn't want to hear both sides he would have gone on and done whatever he wanted and never asked for anyone's opinion. Would not that be the logical assumption?

[Trau]

I hate to break it to you Trau but you just made his argument for him.  He asked you how expressing his opinion that it shouldn't be done was wrong of him and you turned right around and said, "..this is a debate for whether or not the romance/relationship should be made...."

Bingo.  This is a debate FOR and AGAINST.

I never said that this was a good thing. Besides that, I have seen more than enough reasons for a Valen developement, but you folks won't rest until we quit asking for it.

[AvatarofInsolence]

I agree with Auvrin here: Finish Valen as an NPC, give her more dialogues, banter, interjections and so forth. My take on this is simple: How can you say she would be a great romance when she barely speaks at all? What basis do you have for this conclusion? As is, Valen is truly comparable to Kitthix or Guenhwyvar, a tool, a weapon. Will you propose next a romanceable summon? Make her a viable interactive NPC before screaming for a romance. It makes alot more sense to me.

[Auvrin]

I never said that this was a good thing. Besides that, I have seen more than enough reasons for a Valen developement, but you folks won't rest until we quit asking for it.

And I have seen plenty of reasons why it shouldn't be. As I stated before, and as Avatar just restated again.

Why not see the mod finished before you go asking more work to be done, that may not even be needed to begin with? The simple fact is, no one can say what would be a good path for Valen at this point. My opinion could very well change after the mod has more banter and interjection. However, from where it stands now, she doesn't need a romance in my opinion. Not to mention it would be alot less work to finish the mod as it is, rather then forming it into a romance. Romances take more work, if you're not aware. I personally believe Valen could be an outstanding NPC without a romance, and if at some point she shows some side of herself that would warrant a romance, then I would change my opinion ONCE it was done.

As far as I've seen, the Valen romance was asked for before Weimer asked the opinion of the public. Correct me if I'm wrong of course. Though it seems a bit rude to ask for a different ending to a movie when you've only seen half of it.

[Michel]

The only way i would like to see a romance is that when Charname becomes a Vampire (And thus becoming EVIL) instead of turning Valen into a goody two shoes like Sarevok or Vicconia.

[foogla]

Correct if I'm wrong, but the Ritual offers a unique starting point for that. ;)

As for Valen being a "subordinate" and "weak of will": I actually had a completely different feeling, to me she is a truely independent force, one who chose to travel with me in the wake of power, not just because she was ordered (just read her Tree of Life bit).

[Kish]

Reading her Tree of Life bit, and the two (not one, but two) occasions where she begs Bodhi to take her back, she still seems like the antithesis of independent.

I never said that this was a good thing. Besides that, I have seen more than enough reasons for a Valen developement, but you folks won't rest until we quit asking for it.

I see only one person who is trying to get other people to quit posting asking for what they want.

[Trau]

Why not see the mod finished before you go asking more work to be done, that may not even be needed to begin with?  The simple fact is, no one can say what would be a good path for Valen at this point.  My opinion could very well change after the mod has more banter and interjection.  However, from where it stands now, she doesn't need a romance in my opinion.  Not to mention it would be alot less work to finish the mod as it is, rather then forming it into a romance.  Romances take more work, if you're not aware.  I personally believe Valen could be an outstanding NPC without a romance, and if at some point she shows some side of herself that would warrant a romance, then I would change my opinion ONCE it was done.

As far as I've seen, the Valen romance was asked for before Weimer asked the opinion of the public.  Correct me if I'm wrong of course.  Though it seems a bit rude to ask for a different ending to a movie when you've only seen half of it.

Understood. B)

[foogla]

Maybe not independent, but not weak willed either.

[Trau]

I see only one person who is trying to get other people to quit posting asking for what they want.

I'm just wondering what difference it makes to you whether I'm romancing Valen or an ankheg. Who cares if it doesn't make sense? You don't have to use it if you don't want.

[alustriel]

Well, for starters, having a romance with a character that is fairly vague to begin with would be a bit strange. Valen has little in the way of personality other than her propensity to slice open innocent bystanders. Valen Romance = Wes having to flesh out her character + write a LOT of Valen/PC romance/seduction/whatever passes for cold-blooded killer love dialogs.

Auvrin was all too correct about modding being mostly thankless. Wes would have to do all this writing/coding on his own as well as keep up with requests for bug squashing this, changing/adding to that, etc and so on. Everyone's happy when the product is out, but the majority of people don't want to be bothered with helping the mod maker(s) get it to that point.

[serjeLeBlade]

Valen showed nothing but a cold blooded killer.  She wanted death, and she made it clear that she would have to be on a tight leash to keep from doing so.  Valen took matters into her own hands several times, forcing the PC to take the evil path wether they wanted to or not.  She was clearly not meant for a 'paladin' party or anyone of good alignment, she barely even meets the standards of most neutral characters.  

And she's the ideal partner for The Slayer incarnate.
And let me say, *the only believable one available at present*.

After reading this post of yours, I'm actively wondering if you're ignoring my answer to your question because you didn't read it at all, because you found it obvious, because you found it silly, or because you like more to reply to people who are obviously trying to provoke you...

As a side note, I would *love* to romance Gwhenhywar (and to know how to spell its name) if it only was possible

[serjeLeBlade]

Auvrin was all too correct about modding being mostly thankless.  Wes would have to do all this writing/coding on his own as well as keep up with requests for bug squashing this, changing/adding to that, etc and so on.  
Everyone's happy when the product is out, but the majority of people don't want to be bothered with helping the mod maker(s) get it to that point. <_<

Well, I usually pay the market price for the videogames I wish to play.
And all of us know that this is not really required.

If Wes would wish to ask for some 50 or 100 euro anytime for the use of his mods, I'd be willing to pay.
Serious.
Otoh, I'm not interested in writing the dialogues of my vampiresque would-be romance myself. I would be spoiling my own fun... ! Sorry!