347 replies to this topic

[Grim Squeaker]

-nods at Jessayla-

@Grim- would that be so you could say "at least you tried" or "it was fun while it lasted" or.. ? (and don't give me "good people need a reason to play" 'cause they've got enough toys )

What I'm getting at is that, in my mind, any party that's trying to redeem Valen should/would take her down a path to her own destruction.. most likely at the PC's very hands.  And that would be assuming the PC would even get past the first redemption dialogue.

...like I said, dark.  B)

I just like nice open dialogues where you have the option to do things at either end of the spectrum (e.g. Lord M's Immy Mod). Whether I personally would do them or not. Because if the redemption option was available people would try it! And then fail. People would get a chance to realise that Charname is not a person who can convince anyone he travels with to do what he wants!

Actually I think the most fun way to do a Valen romance would be her playing along with your 'redemption of her' and the romance until the point where you are actually in bed with her. She beckons you closer to her and then... she bites you. She says some 'Did you really think I would want to be like YOU? YOU SICKEN ME!' Charname dies. End of saga...

But maybe thats just me wanting to be cruel to someone trying to redeem her...

[Harbinger]

Ok I agree that romances are getting out of hand, Edwin and Mazzy romances in the works for example, but I look at this from a different perspective. I also agree that a romance with a vampire is not in the best interest of the PC, but from a vampire's perspective Valen has much to gain from an involvement with a Bhaal Spawn. So does the player see the forest throuugh the trees, and repel the vampires advances or does he/she give in to their sexual urges? Methinks we see dark and troubled times brewing for our favorite Bhaal Spawn. Use Romance/Redemption as bait for the hook. Nothing like throwing a vampire into the mix to stir up the shit storm. Now that I believe makes for a good expansion to the Valen mod.

[Grim Squeaker]

I just like nice open dialogues where you have the option to do things at either end of the spectrum (e.g. Lord M's Immy Mod).  Whether I personally would do them or not.  Because if the redemption option was available people would try it!  And then fail.

That's not to say that there's no room for redemption dialogue but it needs to be for more of a reason than 'because we want it'. Because if they critically fail to redeem her, which is what I think should happen, it becomes a reload ..and what, then, was the point of it?

We can do huge amounts of maniacal laughter when people post on here asking how they redeem Valen with question like:

'Ialways chose the good option while talking to her but she killed me...'

Satisfaction of a job well done...

[Dark-Mage]

'Ialways chose the good option while talking to her but she killed me...'

Satisfaction of a job well done...

*Choses to remain silent*

[GreyViper]

Can you redeem her by staking her cuting of her head and stuffing it full or garlic?

We can do huge amounts of maniacal laughter when people post on here asking how they redeem Valen with question like:

'Ialways chose the good option while talking to her but she killed me...'

Satisfaction of a job well done...

Good to know that there are some normal people who know how to make other people's game interesting.

[Thorium Dragon]

Auvrin writes...

You think she should be romancable? Give a list of valid reasons why Valen should be romancable.(Not just because you, yourself, want to romance her, but reasons Valen the character should have a romance.)

Good idea, Auvrin! Here goes...

1) Vampires, as portrayed in much of popular fiction are seductive beings, with a unique culture. The Valen mod provides an excellent opportunity to represent this in Baldur's Gate, through the PC's relationship with Valen.

2) Valen's default character portrait (eyes closed, smelling a rose) seems to suggest a certain amount of complexity to her character. The duality of her sensitivity (to the flower, and appreciation of it's scent) and her brutality to living beings makes her a character I would like to see developed through greater interaction with the PC.

3) I believe Valen's primary character trait as it stands now, is dependence. She is dependant on Bohdi and she will be dependant on the PC.

I envision the PC having a lot of dialog with Valen just for the purpose of establishing his leadership of the group. Granted she was directed by Bohdi to follow the PC and it could be said that Valen is obeying Bohdi, by proxy.

However, given Valen's impulsive nature, and the contempt her vampire colleagues in Bohdi's hold show toward living beings; I see her challenging the PC's leadership a few times during their first week together. If Valen comes to accept the PC's leadership, this can form the basis for greater trust (or dependence) further down the road.

4) There really isn't a whole lot more to relate to "Valen, the character" because her character really isn't developed to a significant degree. A relationship with the PC (romantic or not) would seek to rectify this. Does it have to be a romance to do this? Absolutely not, but I don't rule it out.

I'm not sure if you would consider this list "valid" or even if you mean "romance" in the typical sense or just an extended dialog with the PC. I took it to mean the latter.

*******

I've read over most of this thread and I'd like to address some of points various people have made that argue against the possibility of a romance with Valen. {paraphrasing}


{Valen is a vampire}

A few people believe that a romance with Valen is absurd it it's conception. Given the fact that the game does not portray them as anything more than bloodthirsty monsters, it's not hard to see why.

I, however, see vampire's as more complicated than that; so I am not as put off by this.

{Valen is evil}

So, is Viconia; and she is not only romanceable, but redeemable.

{Valen is REALLY, REALLY, REALLY evil!}

That depends on how you look at it. Evil is a matter of motivation. Valen does terrible things, true- but so do sharks. If Valen is a slave to instinct, it can be argued that she is only acting according to her nature and therefore not really evil at all! A possible romance hook? Perhaps.

{a romance would ruin Valen's character}

It very well might, and I share this concern! However done well, it could enhance the character and the player experience.

Simple solution: make this an optional install component or provide a "bail out" point in the dialog for those who don't want it or don't like it.

{the impossibility of physical intimacy}

I think the idea of having a romance where physical contact is impossible makes this the most interesting aspect of all! A relationship of this type is not without precedent either...

For comic book fans, remember Rouge and Gambit from the X-Men (or Rouge and Iceman for those who saw the X-Men 2 movie)?

Also, Fox and Dana from the X-Files series had a romance of a sort without so much as a kiss for years!

*****

Personally, I am in favor of an extended dialog with Valen developing her character which includes an OPTIONAL route to romance. The best of all worlds, in my opinion.

I am away on business for the next month, but when I return home, I am going to teach myself WeiDU and use it to write an extension to the Valen mod.

This disscussion has inspired me

[Auvrin]

The only thing I agree with about having Valen romancable, is that it should be an attemptable option. That, however, is where it should end either by Valen laughing at the PC, reacting in a horribly disgusted fashion, or straight out kill the PC for even trying.

I don't disagree at all with vampires being a seductive breed, however, they are also a very bloodthirsty one in many cases. Simply put, Valen was designed by Bodhi to be a monster. One of her killing machines. In fact Valen states she was hand picked for the task because of her training.

[Thorium Dragon]

No one ever said the romance had to have a happy ending

Great stories have been told around doomed romances. Their romance could realistically end with both Valen and the PC, frustrated, annoyed, and bitter. But perhaps a little wiser as well.

I vaguely remember Fall-From-Grace, the succubus from PS:T talking about "the pain of going against one's nature". A similar pain could cause this relationship to fail.

The only sentiment that I completly disagree with on this thread is that the PC should suffer some form of instant nastiness just for initiating a "romance" dialog. (I'm not reffering to some lewd proposal- then it would make perfect sense for Valen to throw the PC a beating ) That reminds me too much of poor DMs in the PnP game who punish players with death because they make one bad decision.

There are no dialog options to stab yourself in the face with your sword because it's stupid. If romancing Valen is equally stupid in the opinion of the writer, there should be no option for that as well.

[Auvrin]

Sure, Valen might be romantically interested in a person. However, who says she would or has to be interested in the PC? I think the biggest annoyances with romances is that the PC can have pretty much anyone they want in the game, and the NPC of course always tosses the interest back.

[reiella]

Sure, Valen might be romantically interested in a person. However, who says she would or has to be interested in the PC? I think the biggest annoyances with romances is that the PC can have pretty much anyone they want in the game, and the NPC of course always tosses the interest back.

Well, seeing as how the story is about the PC. I don't exactly see that as a bad thing. Probably just a difference on opinons there however.

[Thorium Dragon]

Sure, Valen might be romantically interested in a person. However, who says she would or has to be interested in the PC?

What NPC's do you envision Valen being interested in? And what (if any) role do you think the PC should play in it?

[GreyViper]

What NPC's do you envision Valen being interested in? And what (if any) role do you think the PC should play in it?

Maybe Sarevok and PC would be nerveous bystander who has no idea what these two might do if turned lose. B)

[Thorium Dragon]

Maybe Sarevok and PC would be nerveous bystander who has no idea what these two might do if turned lose.

Sarevok makes sense, but you have to wait until ToB before he appears as an NPC. That doesn't leave you a lot of time to enjoy it. Also, the PC has knocked off a couple of dragons by this point in his career - I don't see him/her being nervous about much of anything.

That really only leaves Edwin. I can see him going vampire to appease his vanity and powerlust. I also see him too fussy to want to sleep in a grave

Maybe a new NPC can be invented? How about ones from other mods?

[Auvrin]

What NPC's do you envision Valen being interested in? And what (if any) role do you think the PC should play in it?

Again, I don't really think she needs a romance at all, it just seems to go against the 'killing machine' theme.

Well, seeing as how the story is about the PC. I don't exactly see that as a bad thing. Probably just a difference on opinons there however.

If that were true, then all races the PC could choose would have the option to romance the other NPC's. However, they don't, which is probably the end of Black Isle's attempt to add a little realism.

[Grim Squeaker]

Personally I think that the otrher NPCs wouldn't try and romance Valen. They have more sense than that. Sarevok for example is no fool. He knows how dangerous vampires are. However since Charname's decisions and therefore his personality are based on the Player who is controlling him then they could try to romance or even redeem her. Whether this leads to him having two fang sized holes in his neck though is upto Valen...

[Auvrin]

Jerr my only suggestion would be that you read more then just a few posts before commenting.

The only factor I find interesting in a redemption, is the chance of having Valen kill the PC for trying to change who she is. Then again go ahead and let the PC try to romance her, I think it would be amusing to have Valen repeatedly bash and mock the PC, stating how pathetic they were in their feeble attempts to seduce a monster.