I'm all for a Valen romance, just because I'd be interested in seeing how Wes handled it. It'd be good to see a well-done evil romance.
Note that "romance" in the BG sense doesn't necessarily imply rose blossoms riding on a gentle breeze, it's just a term for a dialogue-based relationship between the PC and someone else.
Valen Romance
Started by
-Ziad-
, Oct 29 2002 03:02 PM
347 replies to this topic
#182
-Dryice-
-Dryice-
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- Guest
Posted 30 May 2003 - 03:34 PM
One thing I might add? Everyone on this is saying evil characters like her can't love! Well guess what remember the PC's evil half brother Sarevok? He loved some girl that died and he never returned after visting her grave. So I'm saying even a vampire can love if a guy like Sarevok can. Through some of the dialogs Valen does seem to have a ribbon of compassion in her.
Aways if you could romance Valen I think she could make your PC a vampire if they wanted to. Or if she suduced you (if that does come). But with your characters heritage they could shake off her control and control her instead. And maybe place some of the fancy armor she has that lets her walk in sunlight in the game for your PC. Maybe one in every stronghold quest so you could get the armor you wanted that best fit your class. For instance a full plate that has the same abilties as Valen's armor. So to get back on the subject, in other words you could be a vampire couple. Slaying, feeding, and (maybe turn the rest of your party into vampires).
Well I hope my post may have changed a few people's views on thsi subject.
Aways if you could romance Valen I think she could make your PC a vampire if they wanted to. Or if she suduced you (if that does come). But with your characters heritage they could shake off her control and control her instead. And maybe place some of the fancy armor she has that lets her walk in sunlight in the game for your PC. Maybe one in every stronghold quest so you could get the armor you wanted that best fit your class. For instance a full plate that has the same abilties as Valen's armor. So to get back on the subject, in other words you could be a vampire couple. Slaying, feeding, and (maybe turn the rest of your party into vampires).
Well I hope my post may have changed a few people's views on thsi subject.
#183
Melianthe
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- Member
- 18 posts
The Angel of the woods
Posted 01 June 2003 - 07:14 PM
Vampires are souless creatures, and unlike Sarevok, feel humans, elves and any other 'living' creatures are toys, to be played with, I would think, if charname was a vampier she could fall in love, in an evil type of way, but this would have some sort of affect on the whole child of Bhaal, wouldn't it?
Dark angels sing as I fall,
Choruses of banshee like wails,
No longer shall I stand tall,
My wrists pierced with rusty nails.
Today my doom is nigh,
Today my spirit will die.
Thanatos stands before my ghost,
Bony fingers clutch my soul,
I have reached my last post,
My final triumph, my ultimate goal.
Today my doom is nigh,
Today my spirit will die.
Sweet death escapes my hold,
Technology steals my much-needed escape,
My saviors are arrogant, too stubborn and bold,
Now I shall never find my final peace.
Today my doom was nigh,
Today my spirit did die.
Today ~ Fallenspirit
Choruses of banshee like wails,
No longer shall I stand tall,
My wrists pierced with rusty nails.
Today my doom is nigh,
Today my spirit will die.
Thanatos stands before my ghost,
Bony fingers clutch my soul,
I have reached my last post,
My final triumph, my ultimate goal.
Today my doom is nigh,
Today my spirit will die.
Sweet death escapes my hold,
Technology steals my much-needed escape,
My saviors are arrogant, too stubborn and bold,
Now I shall never find my final peace.
Today my doom was nigh,
Today my spirit did die.
Today ~ Fallenspirit
#184
Mikka
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- Member
- 74 posts
Posted 01 June 2003 - 07:54 PM
Vampires are not souless creatures.
Vampire's keep their souls as well as anyone else- perhaps their souls become corrupted, but they are still there. That doesn't change. Vampire's are not 'mindless', and (although it could be argued), a creature who has a mind and intelligence and free will has a soul (this can be debated in the nature of fiends (do fiends have souls?- I would say yes, as fiends have risen before, but it could be argued) and AI (can a machine have, or develop, a soul?- I wouldn't be able to answer that one)).
All that being said and done, I'm not sure a Valen romance would work out. Evil romance's are good and fine, but I can't see there being much of an attraction, at least from Valen to CHARNAME. CHARNAME is powerful, and Valen likes and respects that, but a desire for love, or even lust? It can also be wondered if D&D vampires can even 'have sex'- in 2E Ravenloft, they were sterile, correct (never seen a mention one way or the other anywhere else)?
I suppose it would be possible for Valen and the PC to fall in love... but Valen would have to be fleshed out a lot more. At the time, she's sort of just a 'common thug who was turned in to a vampire by chance'. I mean, does anyone have any ideas about how Valen and CHARNAME would suddenly start a romance? Somehow I doubt waking up one day and going "Valen, I decided I'm in love with you! Yay!" is going to effect her much.
Vampire's keep their souls as well as anyone else- perhaps their souls become corrupted, but they are still there. That doesn't change. Vampire's are not 'mindless', and (although it could be argued), a creature who has a mind and intelligence and free will has a soul (this can be debated in the nature of fiends (do fiends have souls?- I would say yes, as fiends have risen before, but it could be argued) and AI (can a machine have, or develop, a soul?- I wouldn't be able to answer that one)).
All that being said and done, I'm not sure a Valen romance would work out. Evil romance's are good and fine, but I can't see there being much of an attraction, at least from Valen to CHARNAME. CHARNAME is powerful, and Valen likes and respects that, but a desire for love, or even lust? It can also be wondered if D&D vampires can even 'have sex'- in 2E Ravenloft, they were sterile, correct (never seen a mention one way or the other anywhere else)?
I suppose it would be possible for Valen and the PC to fall in love... but Valen would have to be fleshed out a lot more. At the time, she's sort of just a 'common thug who was turned in to a vampire by chance'. I mean, does anyone have any ideas about how Valen and CHARNAME would suddenly start a romance? Somehow I doubt waking up one day and going "Valen, I decided I'm in love with you! Yay!" is going to effect her much.
#185
Melianthe
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- Member
- 18 posts
The Angel of the woods
Posted 01 June 2003 - 08:18 PM
Vapires are dead creatures and therefore could not produce live young like living creatures do, also, vampires see the world different than the livings, love is not as important as power, so Valen may say she's in love but be only doing it for the power a bhaalspawn could offer. In this case, Valen could slowly become more, err, how to say it, entranced by charnames characteristics than just the power 
Dark angels sing as I fall,
Choruses of banshee like wails,
No longer shall I stand tall,
My wrists pierced with rusty nails.
Today my doom is nigh,
Today my spirit will die.
Thanatos stands before my ghost,
Bony fingers clutch my soul,
I have reached my last post,
My final triumph, my ultimate goal.
Today my doom is nigh,
Today my spirit will die.
Sweet death escapes my hold,
Technology steals my much-needed escape,
My saviors are arrogant, too stubborn and bold,
Now I shall never find my final peace.
Today my doom was nigh,
Today my spirit did die.
Today ~ Fallenspirit
Choruses of banshee like wails,
No longer shall I stand tall,
My wrists pierced with rusty nails.
Today my doom is nigh,
Today my spirit will die.
Thanatos stands before my ghost,
Bony fingers clutch my soul,
I have reached my last post,
My final triumph, my ultimate goal.
Today my doom is nigh,
Today my spirit will die.
Sweet death escapes my hold,
Technology steals my much-needed escape,
My saviors are arrogant, too stubborn and bold,
Now I shall never find my final peace.
Today my doom was nigh,
Today my spirit did die.
Today ~ Fallenspirit
#186
Riscorn
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- Member
- 19 posts
Posted 06 June 2003 - 02:02 PM
Your making this all to complicated. GET VALEN NAKED!!!!! YES!!!!!
Now I'm going over here to try and regain my composure.
Now I'm going over here to try and regain my composure.
#187
-Freshmeat-
-Freshmeat-
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- Guest
Posted 10 June 2003 - 11:04 PM
who is that juna or whatever mod that you guys were talking about on page one? oh and how would sec w/ a vamp work and would you really want to its dead
#189
Venomblade
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- Member
- 8 posts
Posted 13 June 2003 - 01:23 PM
On the issue of whether or not AD&D vampires can love or not, I would say that this would depend entirely on the individual vampire.
For example, take Strahd Von Zarovich (from Ravenloft). He made the deal with the dark powers that lead to him becoming a vampire entirely because of his love for Tatyana and his jealously towards his brother Sergei, to whom Tatyana was engaged. Furthermore as a vampire, Strahd's primary motivation is still his love for Tatyana. The dark powers are able to continually torment Strahd by endlessly bringing Tatyana back to life minus her memories, and then causing her to die a short while after Strahd discovers her latest incarnation and manages to romance her (see P. N. Elrod's book : I, Strahd). So clearly it is possible in the AD&D universe for some vampires to fall in love. Of course it should be noted that Strahd still wishes to turn Tatyana into a vampire, so that he will never lose her again - although as a bride rather than a minion, meaning he would have no control over her if he ever succeeded.
However whilst it seems that some vampires definitely can fall in love, the question is whether Valen is one of those vampires who is capable of doing so. It could be argued that Valen loves Bodhi, and indeed continues to pine after her when Bodhi rejects her. Yet whether or not she could ever get over her love for Bodhi and instead fall in love with the PC is perhaps far less clear.
In think its also important to note the existence of non-evil Vampires in the realms, such as Jandar Sundustar (although he later ended up being pulled into Ravenloft by the dark powers). Therefore the idea that a vampire could achieve at least a partial redemption is, whilst highly unlikely, not utterly impossible.
Nevertheless, I personally feel that Valen is not the type of vampire who could be redeemed. However on the issue of whether or not she could enter into a loving relationship with a PC, I feel it could be theoretically possible. For example, one could interpret Valen's love for Bodhi as going beyond the loyalty of a vampire minion to their mistresses and instead stemming at least partially from her desire for love and acceptance. Bodhi rejects Valen's love for her but this doesn't mean that Valen would simply lose her desire for love. If a PC was able to able to genuinely love her and accept her as she is (namely as a being who enjoys hunting and killing), then a Valen romance might well be conceiveable. Of course whether a PC who is sufficiently evil to want Valen in their group is capable of feeling such a sense of love is open to question.
Yet if we go back to the example of Strahd Von Zarovich, we see a vampire who has committed acts of great evil and taken joy in committing them, but who is also capable of feeling overwhelming love towards a mortal. Furthermore Tatyana was a mortal of good alignment, yet Strahd was able to successfully romance several of her incarnations. Of course Valen, unlike Strahd, does seem like more of a one-dimensional tool rather than a fully fleshed out character like Strahd, and I agree with all those who have previously stated that Valen would need to be made into more of a three-dimensional character before a Valen romance could possibly be implemented.
For example, take Strahd Von Zarovich (from Ravenloft). He made the deal with the dark powers that lead to him becoming a vampire entirely because of his love for Tatyana and his jealously towards his brother Sergei, to whom Tatyana was engaged. Furthermore as a vampire, Strahd's primary motivation is still his love for Tatyana. The dark powers are able to continually torment Strahd by endlessly bringing Tatyana back to life minus her memories, and then causing her to die a short while after Strahd discovers her latest incarnation and manages to romance her (see P. N. Elrod's book : I, Strahd). So clearly it is possible in the AD&D universe for some vampires to fall in love. Of course it should be noted that Strahd still wishes to turn Tatyana into a vampire, so that he will never lose her again - although as a bride rather than a minion, meaning he would have no control over her if he ever succeeded.
However whilst it seems that some vampires definitely can fall in love, the question is whether Valen is one of those vampires who is capable of doing so. It could be argued that Valen loves Bodhi, and indeed continues to pine after her when Bodhi rejects her. Yet whether or not she could ever get over her love for Bodhi and instead fall in love with the PC is perhaps far less clear.
In think its also important to note the existence of non-evil Vampires in the realms, such as Jandar Sundustar (although he later ended up being pulled into Ravenloft by the dark powers). Therefore the idea that a vampire could achieve at least a partial redemption is, whilst highly unlikely, not utterly impossible.
Nevertheless, I personally feel that Valen is not the type of vampire who could be redeemed. However on the issue of whether or not she could enter into a loving relationship with a PC, I feel it could be theoretically possible. For example, one could interpret Valen's love for Bodhi as going beyond the loyalty of a vampire minion to their mistresses and instead stemming at least partially from her desire for love and acceptance. Bodhi rejects Valen's love for her but this doesn't mean that Valen would simply lose her desire for love. If a PC was able to able to genuinely love her and accept her as she is (namely as a being who enjoys hunting and killing), then a Valen romance might well be conceiveable. Of course whether a PC who is sufficiently evil to want Valen in their group is capable of feeling such a sense of love is open to question.
Yet if we go back to the example of Strahd Von Zarovich, we see a vampire who has committed acts of great evil and taken joy in committing them, but who is also capable of feeling overwhelming love towards a mortal. Furthermore Tatyana was a mortal of good alignment, yet Strahd was able to successfully romance several of her incarnations. Of course Valen, unlike Strahd, does seem like more of a one-dimensional tool rather than a fully fleshed out character like Strahd, and I agree with all those who have previously stated that Valen would need to be made into more of a three-dimensional character before a Valen romance could possibly be implemented.
#190
Kish
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- Member
- 1265 posts
Posted 13 June 2003 - 04:38 PM
One very important thing to note about Strahd:
In his writeup, at least both 2ed writeups (I'm not sure if it might be written without quotes in his new 3ed writeup, though I surely hope not), the word "love" is carefully put in quotes in describing his feelings for Tatyana. He thinks he loves her, and because of that emotion, he murdered someone she loved and tried to forcibly convert her into a being like himself. Whenever she is reincarnated, he seeks her out and tries to force her to love him. Strahd has sometimes used his overwhelming mental powers to force Tatyana to accept his distortions of their past relationship, but her reaction to what he truly is has always been one of horror and revulsion--and he has never, not once, shown a flicker of concern for Tatyana as a person instead of as a possession. To call what he feels true "love" is to debase the concept of love.
In his writeup, at least both 2ed writeups (I'm not sure if it might be written without quotes in his new 3ed writeup, though I surely hope not), the word "love" is carefully put in quotes in describing his feelings for Tatyana. He thinks he loves her, and because of that emotion, he murdered someone she loved and tried to forcibly convert her into a being like himself. Whenever she is reincarnated, he seeks her out and tries to force her to love him. Strahd has sometimes used his overwhelming mental powers to force Tatyana to accept his distortions of their past relationship, but her reaction to what he truly is has always been one of horror and revulsion--and he has never, not once, shown a flicker of concern for Tatyana as a person instead of as a possession. To call what he feels true "love" is to debase the concept of love.
http://www.moveon.org/fox/
"You are what you do. Choose again, and change."
--Cordelia Naismith Vorkosigan
#191
-Armisael-
-Armisael-
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- Guest
Posted 15 June 2003 - 12:41 PM
I'm fairly certain vampires aren't evil just out of course. The description given by the 2nd Edition Monster Manual suggests that vampirism gradually corrupts people (by forcing them to live by night and commit murder for food, punishing them for contact with anything holy, &c.). Also worth bearing in mind is the fact that anyone infected with vampirism by another vampire falls under that vampire's complete control, and that most vampires created this way would end up serving an evil master, since I guess few "good" vampires would willingly turn someone in the first place.
Sex with a vampire? Uh...well, since vampires lack blood and an effective circulatory system, I guess male vampires would be out of luck there, unless the devil holds their johnson up or something. Female vampires? I dunno, and I think I've typed too much on this already.
Sex with a vampire? Uh...well, since vampires lack blood and an effective circulatory system, I guess male vampires would be out of luck there, unless the devil holds their johnson up or something. Female vampires? I dunno, and I think I've typed too much on this already.
#192
Venomblade
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- Member
- 8 posts
Posted 15 June 2003 - 05:49 PM
According to Van Richten's Guide to Vampires, whilst most people who become vampires are entirely and immediately corrupted by their transformation, some individuals of good alignment and exceptional wisdom (16+, if I remember correctly) do retain at least some of their previously benevolent outlook. However as they age, and their connection with the negative material plane increases, they slowly become corrupted. Therefore almost all vampires start off as evil, and certainly any vampire who reaches 100 years of unlife or more will automatically be of an evil alignment.
However this information does seem to conflict with the existence of Jandar Sundustar, who was an eminent vampire (500-999 years of age), yet still retained his chaotic good/neutral alignment.
Of course with respect to Valen this is largely irrelevent, since she started out as an evil-aligned mortal anyway.
With regards to whether or not vampires are able to have sex, Van Richten's Guide tells us that vampires do have a working circulatory system, despite not needing to breath - the heart still pumps blood round the body, its just that the blood doesn't contain any oxygen.
Furthermore, In the Novel 'I, Strahd', the protagonist does indeed have sex - with a mortal women named Dagmar.
However this information does seem to conflict with the existence of Jandar Sundustar, who was an eminent vampire (500-999 years of age), yet still retained his chaotic good/neutral alignment.
Of course with respect to Valen this is largely irrelevent, since she started out as an evil-aligned mortal anyway.
With regards to whether or not vampires are able to have sex, Van Richten's Guide tells us that vampires do have a working circulatory system, despite not needing to breath - the heart still pumps blood round the body, its just that the blood doesn't contain any oxygen.
Furthermore, In the Novel 'I, Strahd', the protagonist does indeed have sex - with a mortal women named Dagmar.
#193
-Guest-
-Guest-
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- Guest
Posted 16 June 2003 - 09:10 AM
I guess this stuff's just inconsistent from mythology to mythology.
I'd thought the no blood thing was pretty much universal, though. If vampires can live without oxygen, derive "nutrition" from ingested blood and are physically immune to disease anyway, then why would they need to have blood of their own?
I'd thought the no blood thing was pretty much universal, though. If vampires can live without oxygen, derive "nutrition" from ingested blood and are physically immune to disease anyway, then why would they need to have blood of their own?
#194
Fortune
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- Member
- 8 posts
Posted 22 June 2003 - 12:03 PM
Valen is still romancable, and the fact that she is evil is irrelevant...
Three words: Mickey and Mallory.
Hey, why not add to that: Adolf Hitler and Eva Braun.
And another evil couple: George W. Bush and Laura Bush.
Three words: Mickey and Mallory.
Hey, why not add to that: Adolf Hitler and Eva Braun.
And another evil couple: George W. Bush and Laura Bush.
#195
-Requiem-
-Requiem-
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- Guest
Posted 02 July 2003 - 09:44 PM
Let's not turn this into political discussion.
But yes, I really don't see any reason why all romance should be "good" or "redeeming". World certainly had its share of "evil" love and romances in both real and imagined.
And evil romance doesn't necessary have to be "Micky and Mallory" Natural Born Killers romance. I would consider, for example, Romeo and Juliet to be chaotic evil romance.
But yes, I really don't see any reason why all romance should be "good" or "redeeming". World certainly had its share of "evil" love and romances in both real and imagined.
And evil romance doesn't necessary have to be "Micky and Mallory" Natural Born Killers romance. I would consider, for example, Romeo and Juliet to be chaotic evil romance.
#196
-Tancred-
-Tancred-
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- Guest
Posted 03 July 2003 - 03:47 PM
Romeo and Juliet? CHAOTIC EVIL?!? Chaotic NEUTRAL, perhaps, but EVIL? Does Romeo act evil? He begs Tybault not to attack him because he doesn't want to fight the brother of his loved one, and only eventually does kill him out of grief and vengeance for Mercutio's life. Juliet? Does she ever try to impose her will on anyone?
Chaotic evil... Surely not!
As for whether a 'romance' can be evil, I don't think it can. Mickey and Mallory were two people who killed for pleasure, but they certainly cared for each other. It's the one thing that makes them seem less than completely blackhearted. You can have a romance that does not seem wholesome or sane or moral, but I think 'evil' is too strong a word.
Chaotic evil... Surely not!
As for whether a 'romance' can be evil, I don't think it can. Mickey and Mallory were two people who killed for pleasure, but they certainly cared for each other. It's the one thing that makes them seem less than completely blackhearted. You can have a romance that does not seem wholesome or sane or moral, but I think 'evil' is too strong a word.
#197
-Padhavi-
-Padhavi-
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- Guest
Posted 20 July 2003 - 11:45 AM
You people should read Interview with the Vampire.
A Valen Romance would be something awesome to see, if it is well made.
A Valen Romance would be something awesome to see, if it is well made.
#198
-Cybersquirt-
-Cybersquirt-
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- Guest
Posted 22 August 2003 - 02:15 AM
OMG.. Hahahaha... that would be about as dark as it could get. I LOVE it!It could be argued that Valen loves Bodhi, and indeed continues to pine after her when Bodhi rejects her.
sorry boys..
Are vampires not bound to their makers? ..at least til their maker perishes. My only 'experience' with vampires is Anne Rice's version.
#199
serjeLeBlade
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- Member
- 172 posts
Silly bard
Posted 24 August 2003 - 01:00 PM
"My" Valen started to dress exactly like Bodhi, after her death (...ehm, her "final defeat" I mean... huh, chapter 6 ok?)
Now tell me something about "deranged" vampires...
I'm very worried about her
Now tell me something about "deranged" vampires...
I'm very worried about her
#200
-Bloodstar-
-Bloodstar-
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- Guest
Posted 26 August 2003 - 07:34 PM
One question, I thought that vampires became human agin when the vampire who made them a vampire, or is it their master..... Never the less I thought when the vampire's mast or the one who made them a vampire was killed they became human again.
