74 replies to this topic

[Feanor]

Maestro, maybe you wonder why I didn't send you a PM. I posted here the reply above that all see I'm supporting you (even if we had a struggle about the Lunar Stance ) !!!

[T.G.Maestro]

Thanks for your words and support Feanor - you know, my "style" keeps causing more and more trouble, since people find it "arrogant, criticising, etc." in many cases. Yet if they'd try to take a brief look behind some of my words and the way I put them, they'd see the intent.

[Feanor]

you know, my "style" keeps causing more and more trouble, since people find it "arrogant, criticising, etc." in many cases

Criticising yes, but arrogant ?! I think they call you "arrogant" those who don't have arguments anymore (instead of thinking a little bit more to bash your arguments, it's easier to call you arrogant).

Also, I have an idea about justifying Renal's reaction to Chloe's threatening : it's true he could kill all the party, but think what would happen if such a rumor is spread (I mean Renal killing his own employees, because he really owe that money to Chloe). No one will work for him again and he will be out of bussiness, because, in thieves' bussiness, you rely only on trust. He must know that and also his thieves (by the way, I think Renal was in a nasty situation, whatever was the solution chosen : if he kills the party, a rival thief could go to Aran Linvail and whisper to him something like this : "Renal has ruined our reputation, he killed our own employees, we can't hire anyone now" ; if he pays Chloe, the same thief could tell Aran : "Renal does not deserve your trust, he is weak, he let himself blackmailed by a teen girl" ; that seems to me a guild leader demise). What do you think ?


And also a message for Lucythebeast (which seemed very bored about the long debates of Chloe's balancing and Renal dialog) : if I were a modder and I had to answer such question, I will post my opininion three times (maximum) and then I will let the others talk about that topic until they get old (maybe some people enjoy them or they train themselves for a talk-show ).

Also a message for some guys who said "what's the idea about such debates" : guys, that sounds like someone has forced you to post something !

[T.G.Maestro]

that seems to me a guild leader demise). What do you think ?

From the two options you metioned, I'm sure he would pick the first one - that would save his reputation at least. Not to mention that not only Chloe can bluff - I was wondering why Renal never answered to her empty threats in kind..

[Tulwar]

Chloe is the ultimate bull-dyke fantasy girl, completely out of line with male Lesbian fantasys and about as subtle as a 50 kton nuclear blast. That's cool; however, the encounter with Bloodscalp is quite awful.

While Bioware may have been forced to code the anti-gay bias into the game. Sexism does not belong in the game either. The encounter with bloodscalp smacks of misandrous humour, and men take this sort of thing quite seriously. Whether this was intended or not is beside the point; men can only feel insulted.

Revision is in order. It is perfectly OK for Chloe to be a man-hating feminazi, but she should not be rewarded for pathological, anti-social behaviour. It might be quite funny to see her with egg on her face.

[Kissaki]

Hmm... perhaps a nicely scripted fight scene between Renal and Chloe should be in order... it should end up with Chloe blowing away Renal's hidden lackeys and Renal, himself, sporting a bloody scalp... Not neccessarily dead but injured enough to realize that he is overmatched...

Edited by Kissaki, 01 April 2006 - 01:57 AM.

[Lucythebeast]

Actually the dialogue had nothing to do with gender or feelings towards gender, it was about both parties saving face by exchanging token threats. People may misinterpret and think that Renal looked weak, but never considered that it was a strategy on his part. Rogues aren't about upfront strength, they're about sneakiness. What's sneakier than making someone think you're weaker than you are and they're in a position of dominance then if they step out of line, showing your hand and stabbing them in the back? Oh and Chloe's feelings towards Renal was more about his race (halfling) than his gender, also. It should be quite obvious that she's a racist, a flaw in her personality I put in quite intentionally, even if I as a person wouldn't agree with it. I don't really consider her a feminazi either... I intended to show the softer, more vulnerable and feminine sides to Chloe's personality in ToB, I just never had the chance.

[Zyraen]

I remember seeing the dialogue before. Besides most of the language being completely out of character for Renal (he doesn't exactly talk that way), the content and setting of it always looked more to me like the author simply wanted to prove her beloved NPC is "uber", like "demi-god(dess)-like".

The first time I hit this dialogue I actually stopped playing the Mod.

I'm not sure Chloe currently has a ToB portion, but if the 3K is to go through, Chloe could always threaten Renal, fail to get the money (maybe just 1K), and then proceed to waylay/bully someone ELSE holding on to 2K, or maybe go find Renal in some private place where threatening him would be more likely to fly. Either way, such actions would incur Renal's ire enough for the ToB bit.

In any case, Renal's lines seems rather out of character, and given the context (own guild, own thieves, instant stealth, guild front, etc) , none of it holds water.

The other thing the picture seems to omit is that Renal seems rather generous with rewards, at least the BG2 Renal, charismatic suave and "pleasant". 10.5K + Short Sword of Backstabbing for Mae'Var and associates is a lot.

If Renal really didn't intend to "quibble" with her about 3K, or grew tired of arguing, the Dialogue content should reflect that. All it takes is a sentence change or two. But of course that might make the NPC come across as an unsophisticated bleating girl, and that wouldn't be agreeable to the author I suppose.

There's nothing Saving Face about the dialogue for Renal. Actions speak louder than words. Chloe never had any face to lose from the party context. Renal also conceded then made a feeble counter threat. Exchanging threats do not occur that way - it would come across more like an effective bargaining process - concession on both sides. 2K would be reasonable, a mid ground between the 2 stands.

As things are, seeing the most recent response makes me wonder if the author is sure about this dialogue. The reasons seem to keep changing.. and any person who looks at the dialogue would never once consider an effective exchange of threats. "Please slap me in the face, so that I can be sneaky." doesn't cut it.

Edited by Zyraen, 07 June 2006 - 06:32 PM.

[Zyraen]

Also, I have an idea about justifying Renal's reaction to Chloe's threatening : it's true he could kill all the party, but think what would happen if such a rumor is spread (I mean Renal killing his own employees, because he really owe that money to Chloe).

Such things happen in the Shadow Thieves in general, due to various reasons. Killing Mae'Var, but without evidence, was quite sufficient for Renal to dismiss you without a single cent of a 10.5K reward. Getting Evidence (which was the original contract) but not killing Mae'Var was also quite sufficient for him to dismiss you without a single bit of the reward. Bad for Reputation? You bet. Dangerous? You bet. Is he scared of the PC beating his ass for it? Not exactly.

So Aran tortures some rogue guildmasters along the way. Is that common knowledge? Does it affect his Reputation? (apart from helping them remain more in line)

(went to read a bit further back) I think I'm with T.G. Maestro on how to put some of the Chloe reward in addition to what the PC gets on the Mae'Var case. But that's just us player's thoughts. The dialogue really needs rewriting though, even if the 3K outcome remains unchanged.

She would start threatening Renal, so the PC would get a chance to shut her mouth before causing too much harm - if she would continue and keep threatening him, Arkanis Gath would appear and kill her. Not something that an author would like to add in his/her NPC mod (since nearly all NPC modders tend to make his/her character a bit more.. special

Actually what's wrong with bits where the author kills his/her own NPC, lol? As long as it fits the story arc and the NPCs involved. Maybe I'm the only sadist... having coded my NPC die (permanently) in at least 4 separate situations inside my Mod...

Edited by Zyraen, 07 June 2006 - 07:54 PM.

[Lucythebeast]

I remember seeing the dialogue before. Besides most of the language being completely out of character for Renal (he doesn't exactly talk that way), the content and setting of it always looked more to me like the author simply wanted to prove her beloved NPC is "uber", like "demi-god(dess)-like".

(snip)

As things are, seeing the most recent response makes me wonder if the author is sure about this dialogue. The reasons seem to keep changing.. and any person who looks at the dialogue would never once consider an effective exchange of threats. "Please slap me in the face, so that I can be sneaky." doesn't cut it.

Actually by the time I was done with Chloe I rather hated her. I still do. I always thought my writing on it was horrible, but I had come that far and people kept encouraging me. You probably don't know this (since Chloe came out so long ago) but when I started the mod, there were very few NPC mods out there that were finished. There was Solaufein... Tasha... Kelsey (which at the time I believe was also just the SoA portion). That was it. There were a number in various stages of planning/writing, but none released. The whole project started just because I griped about the fact that without gender-confusion issues, there were no bi or gay romances for women. Solaufein, being bi, made one for the guys, but the women were left out. I'm sure there are probably better written, more realistic, and more entertaining mods out there that fit that bill now. But then, there wasn't. I first suggested that someone else might consider the idea. No one bit. Then I figured if someone was willing to code it, I'd be willing to write it. When the project was about halfway through, the first coder had to quit. A year later a second coder took up the banner and asked that I finish the project. So, being a bit rusty on my original intents, I nonetheless took the project back up. Some of the dialogues that I had already written were re-written. Then that second coder had to quit. I was about ready to give up when Sheredane came along and offered to finish it. So, it got finished. I wasn't terribly happy with the end results... Chloe ended up being a lot more "butch" then I intended. But since I had intended at the time to do the ToB portion, it was then that I had planned to show the "cracks in her armor", so to speak. Show the brave and arrogant mask aside, the softer, more vulnerable and feminine aspects of her personality. But since Sheredane promptly quit the project and the modding business right before the release of Chloe (the final patches and such I was luckily able to get), Chloe-ToB was pretty much killed then. No other modders stepped forward... and since Chloe's voice actress disappeared about halfway through the voicing, I knew that was an obstacle as well. And again, I wasn't terribly happy with the results and the project seemed more trouble than it was worth anyway.

There was extensive testing of the mod... lots of suggestions, nitpicks, etc. The usual stuff. No one voiced any real problem with the Chloe-Renal exchange. Now, three years later, suddenly people have a problem with it. That's all well and good, but I don't see what anyone expects me to do about it. I haven't even touched Baldur's Gate since I finished testing Chloe... I'd basically have to force myself to play it, even now... playing through it many many times, through a number of revisions and "oops this dialogue breaks the game here" and such burned me out on it completely. It's sad to say, but it's true. I've moved on. I know there must be far superior mods out there, both in content and playability. That's great. It's a little flattering when people still give a crap about Chloe, but I won't claim that I'm proud of her. I finished what I started, I did the best I could. I think I was 19 when I started the project. It was a learning experience. You may wonder why I still pop in every now and then... I suppose it's just because I'd hate to lose touch completely with a project that took over two years to complete.

As for the "my reasons are changing" comment... perhaps. But since I wrote that stuff anywhere from 3-5 years ago and haven't looked at it since, you might forgive me for not remembering it as if I just wrote it. I barely remember the dialogue, and I'd have to look at it to even know what the words exchanged were. All I remember is, Chloe asked for the money she was owed, Renal tried to stiff her, whether it was just to see if he could get away with it or if he actually intended to stiff her, I don't remember. I don't care either. I remember she threatened him, he basically grumbled and said "Ok here's the money I owe you." I probably intended to have some way of hinting that after Chloe left he laughed and said something along the lines of "I would have paid the stupid girl twice that!" or something but I probably couldn't think of a way it would work in, or got distracted by other dialogues. I don't know. Too long ago. Don't care anymore.

You say you made a mod. Good for you. Criticize my out-dated work, I don't mind. I've probably said worse about it. But do try to keep in mind that I had very little to reference, muddled through as best I could, and at least released something and didn't just give it up. I can say that much at least. *shrug*

[Radish]

The comment is over three years old, yada yada, don't care.

How about the chance to stop Chloe before she goes too far, and then Renal Killing you all, or at least Chloe, if you allow her to be so rash. For good measure, Arkanis Gath can do it.

A perfect idea ...

No it most certainly is not. No mod should ever acknowledge the existence of Arkanis Gath. Because Arkanis Gath is lame. He's a quick hack to keep players from being stuck in an unfinishable game. In fact, his name should have been simply "Game Unfinishable" because it's not as if he could break the fourth wall more than he already does. (Tangentially related, using Arkanis Gath as an argument for why "Chloe wuld totaly di3!!!!11!1" is rather absurd.)

But I particularly felt the need to comment because the ramifications could affect much more than just Chloe. I dream that someone someday will make a mod eliminating any need for Arkanis Gath, allowing the player to arbitrarily slaughter Shadow Thieves if that is their wish and still finish the game. But if lots of modders make content for this fellow who amounts to little more than an avatar for the developers, that's less likely to happen. (Assuming it hasn't already happened and I need to get out of my bloody cave. ...And someone needs to tell me where I can find it, of course.)

But touching briefly on the excessively technical lengths some people have gone to in arguing over the Renal dialogue, one could bring up that as a quasi-deity Chloe would have a lot more power than just what super-human Dexterity gives her. All of her stats should probably be 14 at the lowest, 18 average, and she'd have immunity vs. damn-near-everything on top of that (most likely including poison).

Edited by Radish, 24 April 2007 - 03:34 PM.

[xdeathplanetx]

wow i've never played with chole but what she do with Renal is a blasphemy! he is one of my favourites non-joinables players! oh my i'm gona have nigthmares about these tonigth...