235 replies to this topic

[T.G.Maestro]

I was referring to after the spell is cast. Maybe a period of time where the caster can't cast any other spells?

There will be a significant cooldown period where the mage won't be able to cast another TD, but I'm not sure about lower level spells. Frankly, that would cripple that character for the rest of the battle. I agree to some effects like fatigue or maybe even a winded effect for a short period though.

this you say is your argument for td exp loss? its more against it. you can cast 100 tds because you loose the knowledge to breath (exp.) but you cannot do it because this td uses the holy avenger +6 as component. go figure.

Schatten, you don't get why I keep saying here: there WILL be material components, if we can implement it that way. I'm merely saying that simple material components are not anough to compensate - and OTOH I won't add unique items as material requirement: TDs tend to use powerful magical items (for example a Shield of at least +2 Enchantment level for Barrier of Toth), gems, etc, but rarely a completely unique item of power.

tgms mind is set and mine is also. i dont use it then

A reasonable choice, one that I can fully understand. I'm somewhat sorry to say this, but it is good.
If every player would run around casting TDs that would entirely kill the base concept.
Still, as I said above, you won't be disappointed either with the non-TD repertoire of mages .

[Stone Wolf]

I was referring to after the spell is cast. Maybe a period of time where the caster can't cast any other spells?

There will be a significant cooldown period where the mage won't be able to cast another TD, but I'm not sure about lower level spells. Frankly, that would cripple that character for the rest of the battle.

Yes, a temporary (and dangerous) penalty instead of a illogical permanent penalty.

It doesn't really matter. When I download it I'll certainly be fixing it so xp isn't lost, and I imagine others will do the same. Maybe someone will even post a guide on how to do it.

[T.G.Maestro]

It doesn't really matter. When I download it I'll certainly be fixing it so xp isn't lost, and I imagine others will do the same. Maybe someone will even post a guide on how to do it

A sad thing and somewhat insulting to the authors if you ask me.
Makes me wonder then: why create anything if you can make it yourself so well?

I'm not sure some players understand the amount of work and time put into a mod like this. I'd never alter the work of another modder even for personal use - simply out of respect. If I don't like it: I don't use it. These mods come with douens of separate components, just to make everyone happy and offer multiple options and a large variety of gaming experience. Saying that you use it but ignore the concept of it -or even bother to write a guide for how to do so- stretches the limits of arrogance in my eyes.

[hlidskialf]

It doesn't really matter. When I download it I'll certainly be fixing it so xp isn't lost, and I imagine others will do the same. Maybe someone will even post a guide on how to do it

A sad thing and somewhat insulting to the authors if you ask me.
Makes me wonder then: why create anything if you can make it yourself so well?

I'm not sure some players understand the amount of work and time put into a mod like this. I'd never alter the work of another modder even for personal use - simply out of respect. If I don't like it: I don't use it. These mods come with douens of separate components, just to make everyone happy and offer multiple options and a large variety of gaming experience. Saying that you use it but ignore the concept of it -or even bother to write a guide for how to do so- stretches the limits of arrogance in my eyes.

In all fairness dude, it makes you wonder about the original game designers if this is the case. The whole modding community would be insulting, especially ones that modify existing content like Refinements!
Speaking from a modder's perspective, I wouldn't mind if someone wanted to tweak a creation of mine to their own tastes. It's what modding's all about! In this particular case, in reading over the thread it seems to me that the ones wanting the XP loss are outnumbered by those against it. I am one of those modders who believes I mod for myself, and am of the "If you don't like it, don't play it." philosophy. It is of course your choice to create it as you envision, but I certainly wouldn't be surprised if others tweaked it to reflect something they find more palettable. Likely because I'm also of the "If you want it exactly how you'd like it to be, then learn to mod!" group. (We meet on alternate Thursdays at the pub.)

[Schatten]

i somewhat agree with tgm here. i would feel a bit offended when someone writes a guide as stone wolf said. it is a great amount of work. nevertheless everybody knows that their mod gets altered. man, there was one weapon, a dagger, that has like 25% chance of casing something (cant remember never used it much) without save and no res check from reign of virtue (??) and i have tweaked it a lot (still didnt used it.)

but tgm you sure has modded other mods. iirc, valen, for example. (as i have done, too) and chloe also? :turnip2:

Edited by Schatten, 20 October 2004 - 01:49 AM.

[Littiz]

This leads me to believe that maybe a form of energy draining to the caster, would be a temporal level drain... restorable with resting, and maybe Restoration spells.

I think it is a *great* idea.
Maybe 5 levels drained, as with Bodhi...
Sure, they're recoverable, but the mage would lose some spells on the moment, and would have to re-study them.
A very fitting nuisance for the player, more than a permanent XP loss.

By simply assigning a special spell-school to them. AFAIK, specialist mages cannot cast spells that is opposed to their school. Or is that only for learning them?

I'm pretty sure it's only for learning, the only place where the check is applied.
So you'd have a big problem here.
Also, you keep talking about material components, and I keep saying that they're not really usable with your solution.

[Stone Wolf]

First off, the part about the guide was said in a joking manner. That would be indicated by the smiley that you deleted from the end. You also took off the period, though I'm guessing that part wasn't intentional. If you're going to quote me and then insult me by calling me arrogant, please quote the entire thing instead of editing it so that it fits your opinion better.

I really like what I've seen of Refinements so far. Some of the stuff that's been discussed is based on 3E, which is dislike, but I thought that it was put in in a way that made it fit (the improved critical comes to mind). I truly think that it makes the game better. I'm saying this so you'll be able to put what I'm about to say into perspective.

XP penalties for casting TDs is rubbish. It makes no sense to me whatsoever. You're saying that a character who manages to do what very few members of his craft have the ability to do somehow gets worse at his craft by doing it. Make no mistake, losing xp means just that since xp tracks (quite literally) how experienced that character is. Did Michelangelo finish the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel and forget painting techniques? If Mozard had completed Requiem, would he have lost some of his composing skill? That's what you're asking people to accept, and as you can see I'm not the only one who finds it ridiculous. Being a skilled mage should not make you a less skilled mage!

For that reason I simply won't accept losing xp when a character casts a spell. If you'd rather I didn't download the mod than change the penalty into something I can tolerate for my own use, then so be it. Hell, just say the word and I'll delete Refinements from my computer altogether. I'd miss it, since it's a lot of good work, but it's your mod. I just don't see why you'd expect people to dismiss an entire mod because of the 1% they don't like.

[T.G.Maestro]

If you're going to quote me and then insult me by calling me arrogant, please quote the entire thing instead of editing it so that it fits your opinion better.

I quoted it as it was written. I didn't alter anything "to fit my opinion", and was merely stating that I *really* don't like this part of the joke.

XP penalties for casting TDs is rubbish. It makes no sense to me whatsoever.

This is the eternal problem here. As you said, it don't makes sense to you - but it does for me.

You're saying that a character who manages to do what very few members of his craft have the ability to do somehow gets worse at his craft by doing it

Exactly. The use of this power is hazardous. Since I don't want to use ability or HP drains here, I was thinking about the XP loss. Which -again- somehow made sense to the creators and developers of 3rdE too.

Did Michelangelo finish the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel and forget painting techniques? If Mozard had completed Requiem, would he have lost some of his composing skill?

If a weight-lifter tries to lift a weight that seems too much for him, he might easily suffer from it: while he can lift that amount, his muscles and body will be surely damaged thereafter.

Being a skilled mage should not make you a less skilled mage!

You don't lose any of the powers you aquired so long, so it is pointless to talk about becoming less skilled. It only means that it is harder to get more powerful.

If you'd rather I didn't download the mod than change the penalty into something I can tolerate for my own use, then so be it. Hell, just say the word and I'll delete Refinements from my computer altogether. I'd miss it, since it's a lot of good work, but it's your mod. I just don't see why you'd expect people to dismiss an entire mod because of the 1% they don't like.

Now, let me be clear here. As Hlid suggested, you are FREE to do anything with any of the mods here. Just as I'm free to tell you what I think about it. I never encourage anyone to skip this mod, especially since I do things here mostly for the community (and myself).
And if you think you'd drop the whole mod because 1% of it doesn't suit your taste, well, the choice is yours.

[Jewish]

this you say is your argument for td exp loss? its more against it. you can cast 100 tds because you loose the knowledge to breath (exp.) but you cannot do it because this td uses the holy avenger +6 as component. go figure.

I posted all along the last pages that the experience loss was TOO LITTLE, and should be compensated with items and gold. That has been my argument since the beginning, so I don't think that paragraph represents all what I posted, really.

Regardless, I don't think one should be allowed to cast 100 TDs in the game. That would be almost one per day. I don't believe I have casted more than twenty 9th level spells in my last game, let alone a hundred.

About the item loss, what you said also has been my point. No XP loss forces to require more powerful and more valuable items, but what are these? What item is valuable for every player. Sure, we know the overpowered ones, but they might aswell use all named items so the player has to stick to katanas +3 and such to be sure.

@TGM, about the temporaly level drain, I think it can be as painful as losing XP. If, as Littiz said, the caster is 5 levels drained plus fatigued...

- he is going to lose spells previously available, so the TD is subconsciently left as a latter choice of casting.
- he will lose HP, making it more vulnerable to damage (more risk of dying) and powerful spells based on current HP (power word kill, stun, etc...)
- If he is restored, more fatigue for either him or the caster, plus his other spells will still be lost (and this is if he's allowed to be restored by a spell and not resting only)
- It can be compensated with gold, components and/or longer casting times, so it's not the 'only' sacrifice.

You know, I was trying to think in a different solution.

[Jewish]

On a side note, and I post it separated so this is not missed. hlid has said it already with other words.

You know that there are different modders out there, some mod for themselves and let the community share a part of their work; you know their arguments better than me. Other modders work basically in equal means for themselves and the community, so their mods are influenced by many different opinions.

This is not a critique to any of both groups, but I'd say you are from the latter, otherwise this discussion would not be here. I am with your way of thinking about the XP loss, but that certainly does not mean we are right, and if you are going to gather the majority here, then it's about time to listen and think on alternative ways.

Perhaps we are the ones overreacting a bit now. I don't know. I wish more people saw things the way I do (or not, duh), but it doesn't matter as long as every argument uses logic as its base. Everyone here has been reasonable to a certain extent and have put logic behind their words (flawed or not, it is only a matter of point of view).

What I meant to say with this rant (as if I knew...). That I have stated my opinion, but I'm not going to be on denial. In the end, it is up to the modders and their way of thinking. You have my support whatever you do, that's all.

PS: congrats for the nice new forum looking btw (to whoever did it)

Edited by Jewish, 20 October 2004 - 03:10 AM.

[Eon Blue Apocalypse]

Did Michelangelo finish the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel and forget painting techniques?  If Mozard had completed Requiem, would he have lost some of his composing skill?  That's what you're asking people to accept, and as you can see I'm not the only one who finds it ridiculous.  Being a skilled mage should not make you a less skilled mage!

There's a story that I heard the day before the women's marathon at the Athen Olympics. The temperature was so high, they feared for casualties amongst the runners. Apparently when the temperature is high, there's always some people who are pushing their limits too far, and even though they may not die, they demand so much of their bodies that they will never be able again to compete with the best. I think that if a wizard deals with so powerful magic it is ok for him to suffer permanent damage.

[Littiz]

I think we should go for the level drain effect.
It's a more than reasonable mid-point.

The original system was on an extreme... there's no need now to go the other extreme. Making TDs harder and a bit annoyoing to cast is reasonable, no need to add exagerate penalties which would go against the general "simpleness" of a CRPG compared to a RPG.

[Stone Wolf]

I quoted it as it was written. I didn't alter anything "to fit my opinion", and was merely stating that I *really* don't like this part of the joke.

Well, no. As you can see, my earlier post has not been edited, so the smiley was in there to begin with. Since your post quoted the author and time, you almost certainly used the quote button, which copies the entire post (as anyone can test if they feel like it). Since the smiley was in my post and yet not in the quote, it had to have been edited at the same point as when you typed your response.

Second, if you just meant you didn't appreciate the joke, you could have just typed that. My only response would have been an apology and assurance that I wouldn't do anything that you would find insulting. I've made jokes that were taken seriously before, and that's how I always respond. The following statement makes me wonder if it was clear enough that I wasn't serious though:

Saying that you use it but ignore the concept of it -or even bother to write a guide for how to do so- stretches the limits of arrogance in my eyes.

If you did think I was going to do something that you found insulting, then I do apologize. If I decide to insult someone, I try to make it quite clear. If it isn't totally inescapably clear, it's probably just a case of my sense of humor being inappropriate. I hope that anyone who does think I'm trying to insult them will call be on it, so I can clarify and apologize publicly.

As for the arrogance part--as Hlid said, the Refinements mod is based on altering other people's work. All mods are to some degree. I don't think it's arrogance, since I see the vast majority as improvements. How would my altering a few spells be more arrogant--by the standard you mentioned--than altering large quantities of things that are in the vanilla game? I'd imagine that if you didn't like and respect the game you wouldn't play or mod it. How about extending me the same courtesy?

This is the eternal problem here. As you said, it don't makes sense to you - but it does for me.

Very fair. No comment, just including this quote to be thorough.

Exactly. The use of this power is hazardous. Since I don't want to use ability or HP drains here, I was thinking about the XP loss. Which -again- somehow made sense to the creators and developers of 3rdE too.

Hazardous is fine--I'd go so far as to say that it's a great idea. The fact that Wish has no penalties has always annoyed me, so you'll get no arguements from me on that part at all. I would like to point out, though, that 3E is the only game system I can think of where xp is spent in this manner. All the other games I can think of (including the 2E rules that BG2 is based on) either have xp building to levels or a type of character point system where you're intended to "spend" xp to gain skills--in fact they have no other use.

If a weight-lifter tries to lift a weight that seems too much for him, he might easily suffer from it: while he can lift that amount, his muscles and body will be surely damaged thereafter.

That's a fair point, and it's probably more accurate than my artists comparison, but that strain is almost always temporary, just like temporarly level drain or ability point drain or other things mentioned by other people. The extreme injuries are suffered primarily by people that either don't know their own limits (and I don't think high level casters should automatically fall into this category), or people who try to do something "impossible" out of desperation. Again, a mage that acted like that wouldn't live long enough to get to those levels.

You don't lose any of the powers you aquired so long, so it is pointless to talk about becoming less skilled. It only means that it is harder to get more powerful.

Well, you could if you had just gained a level, but that's nit-picking. Xp is experience--it's a representation of how much the character has learned. When that decreases, it means the character is by definition less experienced than before. One of the reasons that I suggested the mage being KO'd for a significant period of time is because that is very similar to what happens with a physical injury similar to overcasting. I've seen and experienced a fair number of injuries due to overstress, and more often than not the person is out for a while, but comes back ever better than before after healing.

Now, let me be clear here. As Hlid suggested, you are FREE to do anything with any of the mods here. Just as I'm free to tell you what I think about it. I never encourage anyone to skip this mod, especially since I do things here mostly for the community (and myself).
And if you think you'd drop the whole mod because 1% of it doesn't suit your taste, well, the choice is yours.

I'd never alter the work of another modder even for personal use - simply out of respect. If I don't like it: I don't use it.

That's what I was referring to. I took that to mean (and I may have been wrong) that you would prefer people not use a mod rather than alter things they don't like. Wouldn't that mean you should abandon BG2 rather than mod it?

At any rate, my prior post should make it clear that I would download and play a mod with parts I don't like. I'd just edit the parts that I can't stand, and accept that it's just my opinion. I was reacting to what I saw as your preference that people not download the mod rather than alter it to their own tastes. Again, please consider that doing so is very similar to the concept behind Refinements itself.

[T.G.Maestro]

O-K. The extra pressure has been released. Time to calm down .

Well, no. As you can see, my earlier post has not been edited, so the smiley was in there to begin with. Since your post quoted the author and time, you almost certainly used the quote button, which copies the entire post (as anyone can test if they feel like it). Since the smiley was in my post and yet not in the quote, it had to have been edited at the same point as when you typed your response.

I really don't want to xontinue this side-track longer, but I promise: All I did was to "copy-paste" your words SW. Give it a try, it won't paste smilies. And if you take a look at my other posts and quotes, I never quote smilies.

Second, if you just meant you didn't appreciate the joke, you could have just typed that. My only response would have been an apology and assurance that I wouldn't do anything that you would find insulting.

Sorry about that, you are right here. But I cannot help it, that one wasn't my happiest day.

The extreme injuries are suffered primarily by people that either don't know their own limits (and I don't think high level casters should automatically fall into this category)

I think not, not if they cast these 10th level spells. Your point is valid for all other spell levels though.

At any rate, my prior post should make it clear that I would download and play a mod with parts I don't like. I'd just edit the parts that I can't stand, and accept that it's just my opinion.

Ehh..! :bash:

[T.G.Maestro]

I think we should go for the level drain effect.
It's a more than reasonable mid-point.

To be honest, I was trying to ignore this suggestion, since I have very solid doubts about it. While technically it is a fair suggestion, it is much more flawed from the pnp PoV. In BG2 Level Drain is not something that is used in such a way - it is mostly associated with Negative Energy. And while some TDs deal with those arts, most them are not. I simply don't see any reason why a normal Evocation TD would drain experience levels.. . The XP loss I suggested comes from a very different theory than pure Energy/Level Drain. I think solving the problem this way would be a very out-of-place solution.

Still, I'm (more) open to good arguments and suggestions here.

[T.G.Maestro]

Loss of experience and loss of experience through level drain are essentially the same thing in their effect. Level drain is just a bigger hit to your experience and it is fixable

Correct me here if I'm wrong, but I know it differently: AFAIK the "Experience" opcode can reduce the target's experience by a fixed number WITHOUT affecting any spells/innates/ability scores/HP, while the Level Drain opcode clearly reduces/removes all the powers you gained from the recent level-ups.
That is exactly what I based my reasoning upon - though again, I might be wrong.

[Littiz]

To be honest, I was trying to ignore this suggestion,

ehm, as you're trying to ignore technical issues?
Very constructive

I simply don't see any reason why a normal Evocation TD would drain experience levels..  .

ehm, allow me to mirror this statement:
I simply don't see any reason why a normal Evocation TD would drain experience points.

TGM, it's a fantasy game, every interpretation is correct. Level drain would be a fair efficient way to "tap energy from the caster", something that would need resting and curing afterwards in order to be fully recovered.

[T.G.Maestro]

ehm, as you're trying to ignore technical issues? 
Very constructive

Eh, stop this for now please - I'm NOT ignoring ANY technical issues, I'm merely trying to figure a way around them! And it is not easy to answer for all the replies/suggestions/ideas and not miss a few.
I read all your posts Littiz, and the fact that I don't reply anything mostly means that I agree with them.
Come on, why suspecting always the worst about me?

TGM, it's a fantasy game, every interpretation is correct.

Ehem. I remember you telling me at least a hundred times that we must use the rules of this game if we are trying to solve/do something. I was merely pointing out that Level Drain and Energy Drain cannot be associated with TDs as easily as you promote. Both effects are directly connected to Negative Energy in D&Đ, if I'm not mistaken.

********************************************************************
Now, how about the following logic for all the TD system (using many of the ideas/posts in this thread):


First, we would make a HLA called True Dweomers. This one would be available for picking numerous times. This HLA would become an innate after selection, and would appear in the innates bar.
Now, if someone would click on this innate, a list would appear, with all the possible TDs. However, these TDs wouldn't be directly available to the mage, he should develop them first. If he'd click on the desired TD (and would match the requirements of that specific 10th level spell -and we are talking about the costs of the development only!-) that TD would appear in his innates bar, and the TD icon would be permanently removed and lost from the repertoire.
From this moment on, the mage would be able to use that TD (again, if he mets the ADDITIONAL requirements of its casting, meaning material components, Gold, level requirement). Everytime a mage would cast a TD, he'd be fatigued until rest, and would suffer a short winded state too (for various duration, depending on the TD's power). Also, he wouldn't be able to cast another TD from his innates bar for 5 gameplay hours.
On the next level-up, the mage could once again pick the TD HLA, so he could develop another TD, described in the way above. The TD innate would once again disappear until it has been picked from the HLA table again. We should set a maximum nuber one can choose this HLA, I'd say 5 for normal mages and 2 for Multis. Maybe -and again, MAYBE- we should allow 1 pick for Sorcerers too...

This solution would involve twice the amount of material sacrifices from the part of the caster (first for the development and then for casting), so I think we can "safely" forget the XP loss, just as any other questionable ways to weaken the caster. The fatigue/winded state, plus the TD cooldown period would be more than enough.

Of course this is only a base idea, but I think it might work. I'm not entirely aware of the scripting part's implementation, what do you say Littiz?

Also, I'm waiting for any opinions about this implementation.

Edited by T.G.Maestro, 21 October 2004 - 05:00 AM.

[hlidskialf]

Not to be a AD&D-Lawyer here, but I'd like to make one point TGM. You keep referring to "Negative Energy" and imply that it doesn't relate to fatigue, energy loss, etc... In the basic principle of the game it does. What AD&D does for the "magic" is give a lack of something actual substance. For example, heat is the opposite of cold. Cold however isn't a "real" force. It's merely a lack of heat. In the game, we don't cast a Cone of Cold, and suck the heat out of the area, we blast it with a palaple force of "coldness". The same applies to the positive/negative energy. When you're "zapped" by a vampire, they remove "positive energy". They do this because they have contact with the negative material plane. The effect is the same as if you'd run a marathon, been studying for a day, etc... It's all semantics. It's why in PnP so many spells and such actually age the caster, and so many monsters can "suck the life" from you. Hope that made sense, I'm REALLY tired here.
As for the design of your TDs... It'd be a bloody nightmare to attempt to code it. With oodles and oodles of repetative files made in order to give the illusion of selection you want. I certainly wouldn't attempt it and I've made some really funky-type project work-around-features!