235 replies to this topic

[Caedwyr]

Yep, she has a comment about how she is one of the most powerful spell casters on Faerun, and Volo's comment about Imoen names her as an Archmage.

[Jinnai]

I'm with TGM here, and i'd even say the 1-9 spells should follow the same logic. Aeire may understand magic more, but putting that understanding to practical use is another thing. And being an archmage is being to cast 8-9 level spells, not ness TDs. Disciipline and focus are nessary, not only while casting and maintaining, but while preparing and reasearching and understandfing a TD, and doing so for more than one increases it exponentially. No matter how powerful they become will never be able to grasp the full and awesome power of higher spells, either because of natural inability or lack of discipline in training themseleves (which represents itself as int for wizards and wis for clerics).

As to multi-classed, i don't think it should count against them, except to maybe up their requirmenets for more than say 2 TDs.

[T.G.Maestro]

I think I'm going to post every planned detail on the upcoming TD system. Please use these references to continue the dicussion:

- Mages will get 6-7 9th level bonus spell HLAs like Comet, Foresight, Aegis, Weird, etc...
- They'll get a few (2-3) passives and innates like Arcane Knowledge, Scribe Scrolls, etc...
- They'll get the innate True Dweomer HLA. This power will have at least 2 prerequisities.
- The TD HLA will be pickable 4 times for single-classed character, but there will be an INT check if we can implement it:
1 pick: 14 INT required
2 picks: 16 INT required
3 picks: 18 INT required
4 picks: 20 INT required
- The TD innate will open a list with all the possible TD spells. This TDs will have level requirements however, so the less powerful ones could be used from level 20-21, while there will be TDs that will have a level requirement of 25+. The available spells will appear "colored" on the list, while the on-available ones will be greyed out.
- Multiclass characters will get the TD ability, but they will be limited to 2 picks (1 at 14 or 15. level, 2 at 17-18.)
- Most TDs will have casting restrictions (e.g. one cannot cast the same TD in 12 hours, and maybe even a fatigue effect will be included after casting a TD - whic will be cumulative after every additional castings of course).

While some of you will cry out seeing all these restrictions, remember that these spells will be significantly more powerful than any other spell in the game - some of them will grant the wizard unbelieveable powers in game terms.

[Littiz]

No no, no more "Littiz, do this little miracle for me" thing.
Tell me how you think to implement the INT check, and the level restrictions for the Spell Immunity-like menu, and we'll have a deal

[T.G.Maestro]

Tell me how you think to implement the INT check, and the level restrictions for the Spell Immunity-like menu, and we'll have a deal

I don't know anything about the INT check, but the level restriction *could* be easy if I'm not mistaken: we simply have to set the "required level" parameter of each spell to the desired value. If the character is below that level, the ability will appear unuseable on the list I guess. We'll have to check of course.

[T.G.Maestro]

No no, no more "Littiz, do this little miracle for me" thing

How about you changing name to Mr.Miracle or MiracleMan?

[Baltrek]

Whoa, TGM, take a step back. We disagree on something here.

- Multiclass characters will get the TD ability, but they will be limited to 2 picks (1 at 14 or 15. level, 2 at 17-18.)

You mean, a character that cannot even cast 8th or 9th level spells, through lack of understanding of magic and experience, will be able to cast TD's?

Say what?

On top of that, an 18th level character could cast 2 TD's, and only one 9th level spell? That seems fundamentally flawed. The minimum level for ANY TD should be 20th. This sort of follows what a naturel progression of the spell chart, and represents the experience and mastery required by the mage.

[Rathwellin the Bard]

- They'll get the innate True Dweomer HLA. This power will have at least 2 prerequisities.

18th level - pick first prereq.
19th level - pick second prereq.
20th level - pick first TD.

....That sounds like a 20th level minimum to me.

[T.G.Maestro]

Multiclass characters will get the TD ability, but they will be limited to 2 picks (1 at 14 or 15. level, 2 at 17-18.)

Sorry, there is a typo in this sentence. What I meant: they will be able to pick 1 at 14 or 15 INT and 2 at 17-18. Sounds better?

On top of that, an 18th level character could cast 2 TD's, and only one 9th level spell? That seems fundamentally flawed. The minimum level for ANY TD should be 20th.

Rethwellin already answered this one for you.

[T.G.Maestro]

Seemingly offtopic: Could someone send me some of the PS:T visuals via MSN Messenger? I'd need them heavily for TDs in the future.

[Baltrek]

I understand, now. But that still leaves the problem with multiclassed characters who get HLA's at a much lower level. I mean a triple classed mage would start getting HLA's at like what, level 12, 13? I don't have a manual handy at the moment.

[T.G.Maestro]

I mean a triple classed mage would start getting HLA's at like what, level 12, 13?

Not if I set level requirements for those TDs. They might get the innate, but most (if not all) of the possible TDs will appear unuseable.

[Galactygon]

Seemingly offtopic: Could someone send me some of the PS:T visuals via MSN Messenger? I'd need them heavily for TDs in the future.

Yes, I have recieved your PM, but didn't reply "bekuz of RL". As for the visuals, sending everything is HUGE, and all of the PS: T animations are made to be in cutscenes; only if you have the correct timing will you be able to get things very flashy. I have cut the animations up (and put them back together), but I haven't perfected the cutscenes yet.

Patience, my friend is your best friend. It will eventually pay off and reward you immensly.

-Galactygon

[T.G.Maestro]

Patience, my friend is your best friend. It will eventually pay off and reward you immensly

As long as the reward is sufficient, I wait most patiently.

PS.: heh, this sounded like a typical BG2 "evil-style" answer..

[Rathwellin the Bard]

I?ve just finished playing an SoA + Watcher?s Keep game with a Druidic Sorcerer PC. I mention it in this thread since the way the Druidic Sorcerer implements 10th level spells is very similar to what TGM first posted about here. The Druidic Sorcerer gets to pick a ?10th level spell? HLA. That in turn gives them a special ability, useable twice per day, that when clicked brings up a ?spell immunity like? menu that let?s you select the actual spell cast.

Now I didn?t get this until very near the end of the game so I didn?t have a ton of experience with it but based on what little I did here are my impressions of this overall setup.

The good:
- It seems less abusive to do thing this way for sorcerers rather than just adding spells to the spellbook.
- It lets mages actually use more 9th level spells.

The Bad
- More than once I ?lost? a 10th level spell when I clicked on the ability in the middle of combat but then had to click on another party member. When I clicked back on the PC after the HLA was ?used? the menu was not visible.
- I didn?t test this, but I suspect that this kind of setup could be cheesed. For instance cast Tensor?s Transformation, have spells disabled, and then use the special ability to cast a 10th level spell.

My main thought after seeing this ?in play? was that I would have like a pop-up menu similar to what the spell triggers and contingency type spells use. This sort of thing pretty much guarantees that you will not ?waste? one of these spells as I did several times with the spell immunity like menu.

Maybe it?s just my play style but I tend to use spell immunity more as a pre-battle buff than in combat & it?s menu works perfectly for that. However in high pressure combats, the kind where I tend to actually use 10th level spells, I tend to be doing a lot more than just paying attention to my spellcaster so the menu doesn?t work nearly as well.

[Scar]

- More than once I ?lost? a 10th level spell when I clicked on the ability in the middle of combat but then had to click on another party member.  When I clicked back on the PC after the HLA was ?used? the menu was not visible.

Ah, yes, that can be an annoyance, but I thought that's a known fact to power gamers who tried each class and kit at least once .

At the present, there's three spells suffering from that, Spell Immunity, Magic Weapon and Nahal's Reckless Dweomer. It's most annoying when playing a Wild Mage (especially a chaotic one, who tends get reckless in battles ), so I adopted a play style that involves the space bar as material component of any spell. IMHO, if you know the limitations, they are easily overcome - with a bit of discipline, of course.

Anyway, if someone wants to playtest the suggested TD mechanics, a Wild Mage using NRD quite frequently does come close...

My main thought after seeing this ?in play? was that I would have like a pop-up menu similar to what the spell triggers and contingency type spells use.

I think that would be A. more difficult to code and B. impractical, since quite often you need to aim your spell at something, which is not possible with the menu blocking your view.

[T.G.Maestro]

I think that would be A. more difficult to code and B. impractical, since quite often you need to aim your spell at something, which is not possible with the menu blocking your view.

Indeed - if it ever gets implemented, it will most likely come with the good-old Spell Immunity system.

[Rathwellin the Bard]

TG, since you've brought this topic back up to the top let me ask a question.

How will you rebalance other classes like the Sorcerer when you make this change?

For instance one of the assumptions made with Aura Cleansing was that Mages would most likely have but one or two IA hits due to having to share normal spell slots with other 9th and 10th level spells. Now with a potential 4 'True Dweomers' and a full set of 9th level spells Mages will become more powerful than the current implementation.

[T.G.Maestro]

Rathwellin, you always "maximalize" things. There won't be too many wizards running around with 4 TDs, if I manage to make the system and prerequisites the way it was discussed before.
Even if somehow a mage would be able to have 4 picks of TDs, he won't be able to use IAs frequently - every True Dweomer will have a specific "cooldown" period, which means you won't be able to cast two Dragon's Breath or 2 IAs in a row. Instead of this, you'll have to wait at least 8 game-hours to cast them again - or even more. And don't forget that they might even require a few material components... As you'll see, things will get more difficult with these new spells .

Edited by T.G.Maestro, 03 May 2004 - 10:35 AM.

[Rathwellin the Bard]

Hey! I'm an American if we can't supersize it.....

Seriously, please note that I said 'with a potential 4' ... didn't mean to imply that every mage would have 4.

That said my experience from most boards is that folks do tend to min-max their PCs. If they have to have 19 Int for 'x' then they make sure that they have it.

I do like the sound of the 8 hour delay though. It would actually be more restrictive than the current setup.