235 replies to this topic

[T.G.Maestro]

Memorized? Not exactly. The books say they cannot be memorized, copied into spellbooks or written into scrolls like you'd do it with normal spells - they are simply formed from the wave of arcane energies.
Don't worry about those casting times however, most TDs will have very high (compared to lower level spells) casting time.

[Scar]

Well, they are memorized, kinda, but not in the classical way through a spell book, but through a lengthy, ritual-like preperation phase. Such a preparation might take anywere from a few minutes up to several months or even years (but that's definitely out of scope for BG). Furthermore, no True Dweomer is exactly the same as another, so I'd like to see quite "randomized" results (like wide damage range, variety in type and number of summoned creatures, even longer or shorter spell duration... I think you get the idea).

BTW: a priest's quest-level spells technically are True Dweomers, too...

A spell immunity like menu should not be complicated, just use effect 214, fed by a 2DA listing the spell choices. It is a valid solution for TDs, I like it. Are you planning for one global TD-list available to all mages, or for a set of local list depending on schools? Making different lists isn't difficult, problem might be picking the right one.

As indicated before, I'd love to see components used in spellcasting. Crazy idea: use an item for preparation: place dragon's tooth in quickslot and use it => preparation ritual taking, say, one turn => have an innate ability "Dragon's Breath" and the component is made undroppable (possibly moved to inventory first) => cast spell, casting time one round, either destroying the component in process, or freeing it for another use. Tricky bit would be to restrict the number of TDs per day, and prevent stacking on next day... well, it's probably not feasible, but anyway, thanks for listening .

@JTrebeil: see effects 112 and 123.

[Caedwyr]

Regarding the Summon Balrog: remember that the source book for that one was player made, not official. Lets keep the amount of cross-over to a minimum. Choose a different creature to summon if you must.

[Caedwyr]

Nah, for the TD, we can just make it summon Planetars and maybe summon one of the greater/true fiends. All that needs to be done, is to faithfully recreate their actual abilities and power levels. (Fiends & Celestials were heavily nerfed in BGII).


Summon Solar, is pretty much synomous with Summon Demi-God.

[Jinnai]

Nah, for the TD, we can just make it summon Planetars and maybe summon one of the greater/true fiends. All that needs to be done, is to faithfully recreate their actual abilities and power levels. (Fiends & Celestials were heavily nerfed in BGII).


Summon Solar, is pretty much synomous with Summon Demi-God.

How about Summon Balor? Actually it would be nice to have something like Summon Titan for neutral clerics/preists.

[Caedwyr]

Titans are actually Chaotic Good in 2nd edtion, but I'm sure we could find something on an equivalent power level that is extraplanar and neutral. Summon Balor, or another powerful fiend would work for the evil version.

[T.G.Maestro]

Summon Balor would be nice, if Balors would pose a threat at that level in BG2. Sorry, but they don't. Unless they are heavily improved (or restored), we should "suumon" something more powerful. Simply take a look at ToB Balors - a single ToB NPC can duel them with good chances for victory.
How about Summon Balor Lord? The creature could be an improved version of the Lesser Demon Lord used at Divine Intervention for clerics.

[Jinnai]

Summon Balor would be nice, if Balors would pose a threat at that level in BG2. Sorry, but they don't. Unless they are heavily improved (or restored), we should "suumon" something more powerful. Simply take a look at ToB Balors - a single ToB NPC can duel them with good chances for victory.
How about Summon Balor Lord? The creature could be an improved version of the Lesser Demon Lord used at Divine Intervention for clerics.

Yea that's a good idea, or Summon Balor Prince as that usually denotes something more powerful than lord, but either is fine, but BG2 does underpower them. They should be much more difficult to defeat than a planetar.

Still something for neutrals is needed...

[Littiz]

I didn't mean to add 8th level spells as HLAs.
Just meant that they need to be added, and since we'll have problems with balance and portrait icons, I'd prefer to focus there.

I don't feel that many 9th level spells are needed, and you should be willing as much as me to avoid those damn_pain_in_the_a.._spellbook_icons, if possible

Spells should really be of the type that *doesn't need* new portrait icons.

[T.G.Maestro]

I didn't mean to add 8th level spells as HLAs.
Just meant that they need to be added,

Truth, but don't worry about it. This will go for our spell revision component, yet I'm not sure if it can make it into v2 - its a huge amount of work, and we've got other important things on the TODO as well. That component requires MUCH planning, and it involves the.. how did you say:

damn_pain_in_the_a.._spellbook_icons

too
But again, you're right, we have to attempt creating spells and TD that can live without new SE icons.

that's a good idea, or Summon Balor Prince as that usually denotes something more powerful than lord,

Too powerful. Remember, a Prince level demon is like Demogorgon - not something that should be summonable, even via a TD. Don't worry, even a Lesser Demon Lord can be more than deadly (take a look at the demon in Ust Natha, or the one in Refinements). Now, this time we are talking about a REAL Lord class demon. You won't be disappointed .

[Schatten]

ähm... a planetar is a very tough summon creature and you intend to summon something that is even more powerfull? whats the drawback? such a thing you are planning will be able to solo 3 liches&3 dragons in a row. sorry, i am against such a powerfull summon creature.
a planetar is a powerfull being but isnt overpowered, imo. it fits perfectly in a modded bg2/tob with battles&tactics ect..

edit: perhaps if you must sacrifice 2 con points or something would fit. i mean its a lord of hell and you must do some blood sacrifices and be protected from evil.

[T.G.Maestro]

a planetar is a very tough summon creature and you intend to summon something that is even more powerfull? whats the drawback? such a thing you are planning will be able to solo 3 liches&3 dragons in a row. sorry, i am against such a powerfull summon creature.
a planetar is a powerfull being but isnt overpowered, imo. it fits perfectly in a modded bg2/tob with battles&tactics ect..

First of all, Planetars are NOT that powerful in ToB. A single Planetar falls very quickly against a ToB Dragon or any of the bosses. Yet their summoning has no drawbacks at all, and they are completely controllable.
In this case we are talking about the most powerful Demon summoning spell. Yes, the summoned creature will be a Demon Lord, and it will be more powerful than a Planetar in many aspects. But Schatten, do you believe that it will come without heavy drawbacks? You still don't know me well enough!
Here is what I have in mind:
- there will be a long casting time, around 30 seconds;
- the caster will draw a pentagram. Every single creature inside of this pentagram will be protected from the creature, but anyone who steps out of it will face the wrath of the demon. Remember, this spell only summons the creature to the prime material plane, it won't allow control over it! The Demon Lord is more than intelligent, and it will try to do its best to "locate" the caster - he will be its prime target. These are not facts, only ideas of course. We'll see.

[Baltrek]

And gentlemen, remember. You get full exp for something a planetar kills. I never remember seeing any exp for something killed by a pit fiend. I would say that not getting exp for their kills is a huge penalty. I used one to clear out that party in the sewers, cause I'm lazy sometimes, then used one to clear out that illithid lair, cause I hate it. I got no experience for those kills, but it was fun to see an illithids "weapon had no effect" 10,000 times while the fiend stood there stunned, and I killed illithids with missile weapons.

I think summonning a demon lord is a great idea for TD.

[T.G.Maestro]

Another idea I had is to make this Demon Lord a bit more than simple mega-cannon-fodder. Maybe this creature will be conversable - and would offer a few options for its summoner... at a GREAT price.

Remember, the most hated opponent of these creatures are their actual summoner.

[Schatten]

"First of all, Planetars are NOT that powerful in ToB. A single Planetar falls very quickly against a ToB Dragon or any of the bosses. "

well, have never used it against dragons, only mordis.
nevertheless, imo planetars are very tough summons. they are hasted, vorpal hits and globe of blades. its just my opinion. perhaps because i have never used them against really tough opponets. dont ask me why.


"But Schatten, do you believe that it will come without heavy drawbacks? You still don't know me well enough!"

no no. i knew you would have something up your sleeve. hey, i am your biggest fan. i have posters all over my walls of you.
i just fear, you gate that beast, it kills a dragon/bhaalspawn/... without you to interfere and you just wait till its done. so even if you get now exp. i mean. if i am only lvl 40 or 36 after the end doesnt matter too much.
so to clarify a bit. i fear it can beat (or help too much) the only real challenge which are the boss fights.

but after i read what you intend to do its seems not to be that way. not to be able to move without being attacked is a bit of a handicap.

[Baltrek]

Gotta watch out with devas though. I had one with globe of blades on, and my PC had it on as well. We were clearing out the Fire Giant lair in ToB, very efficiently I might add. When to my dismay, well, to my almost dead PC's dismay, the Deva decided to come over to try and heal my character. So they come over, get whacked by my globe, then turned hostile and I had to kill the hasted vorpal globed deva.

I also think it is funny how ToB really does not capture the fearsomeness of some opponents. I mean the only ones that give people trouble are the demi-liches, normally. Back in the day, if a character ran up against a pit fiend, it was a terrible experience. These guys kill them by the dozens. In PnP, a pit fiend used to be able to gate in more pit fiends. If just one of them got loose in the prime material plane, it was baaaaad mojo.

I think a conversible rampaging arch-demon with an attitude problem would be wonderful, in BG though. How would the pentagram look on screen?

[T.G.Maestro]

Gotta watch out with devas though. I had one with globe of blades on

Devas no longer get Globe of Blades in Refinemets.

Back in the day, if a character ran up against a pit fiend, it was a terrible experience. These guys kill them by the dozens. In PnP, a pit fiend used to be able to gate in more pit fiends.

Agree entirely Baltrek. In v2 we intend to change this with the Creature revisions component. Chances are that this one will be split into several smaller components like Revised Undead creatures, Revised Demons, etc.

How would the pentagram look on screen?

Take a look at this screenshot over at the Refinements website . Something like this.

[Baltrek]

I would love to see revised demons. I hate the demon level of watcher's enough already. There will be some bad battles in there then.

I guess when I think of balrogs and pit fiends I think of Fellowship of the Ring. I think that is where the classic demon image came from for AD&D to some extent. Very fitting as well, IMHO

[Schatten]

"Devas no longer get Globe of Blades in Refinemets."

why? i hope you write all changes in the readme.


"In PnP, a pit fiend used to be able to gate in more pit fiends."

this is not true. he can gate demons who are less powerful then himself.