73 replies to this topic

[T.G.Maestro]

*** Topics merged.
Please avoid starting a thread if another with the same name is already apparent.

[Littiz]

the sword angel is a hypocrite who toys with his prey before killing it.

This assumes that you do kill it, while - as Caedwyr perfectly explained - it isn't necessary most of the times. Unless you kill for goodies, then it's player's fault if he plays the character that way.

This kit is a "tool" for roleplaying a particular - and very ideal and irrealistic - type of character.
Like every tool, it must also be used properly... I can only pave the way.
Anyway, if I find the time for this (I mean not in the close future), I'll try to think about some script change for spared enemies, but this is still a somewhat secondary issue: everyone is responsible only for his own actions, and I'm trying to portray the S.A., not his enemies.

Thanx for the re-ordering @TGM

[T.G.Maestro]

I'd like to hear a few comments on this idea:

I'd suggest to increase the regeneration rate of the Regeneration SA HLA. It is identical to the Monk Regeneration ability, but this can only be picked once, while the monkish version can be chosen 3 times. And while a monk can reach a 1HP/sec rate with that version, a SA will always be limited to 2HP/round.
I'd suggest increasing the reheneration bonus of this SA ability to 3HP/round

[Rathwellin the Bard]

The SA can use more Regeneration aiding items than the Monk can.

Makes sense to me that the Monk could be 'better' at this naturally.

Would not change it.

[T.G.Maestro]

OK, this is one opinion, and a good one. Anyone else?

[Caedwyr]

I think it works well the way it is, and since the Sword Angel kit is Littiz's baby and he seems happy with the way things currently work + the sword angel can use more regen items I think there is no balance or roleplaying reason to increase the regeneration.

[Feanor]

the sword angel can use more regen items

Not quite. The monk also could use regeneration rings or Ring of Gaxx. But I see the regeneration as a natural ability of the monk class. Vote for Caedwyr and Rathwellin.

I'd suggest to increase the regeneration rate of the Regeneration SA HLA. It is identical to the Monk Regeneration ability, but this can only be picked once, while the monkish version can be chosen 3 times. And while a monk can reach a 1HP/sec rate with that version, a SA will always be limited to 2HP/round.
I'd suggest increasing the reheneration bonus of this SA ability to 3HP/round

Who says SA should have the same regeneration rate as the monk ?

[T.G.Maestro]

Right, we have a winner then - Regeneration remains at the 2HP/round rate .

[Littiz]

I think it works well the way it is, and since the Sword Angel kit is Littiz's baby and he seems happy with the way things currently work + the sword angel can use more regen items I think there is no balance or roleplaying reason to increase the regeneration.

Don't get me wrong, TGM already provided some nice inputs and ideas for this kit, everything is still debatable.
The point though is that such corrections would be minor in any case, and I don't think that "fine tuning" for the balance of this kit is urgently needed in the first place, since if you try to powerplay it you're already abusing of it

[Caveman]

@Regeneration- Either way, 1 hp per round won't make or break you in combat.

the sword angel is a hypocrite who toys with his prey before killing it.

The percentage of kills for my S.A. PC is about 15% compared to ~80% when playing as other warrior-type characters.

[Littiz]

the sword angel is a hypocrite who toys with his prey before killing it.

The percentage of kills for my S.A. PC is about 15% compared to ~80% when playing as other warrior-type characters.

A most lovable report
Thanx Caveman

[Caveman]

Finally reached 40th level with the Sword Angel. It is a very interesting and enjoyable character to play and definitely not weak. My compliments. Anyone who liked a kensai should love this one! ‘Tactics’ and ‘Ascension’ really tested the S.A. skills...but the kit is playable without cheating and/or cheesing. IMO, it is a very well balanced kit. All the HLA’s work as advertised. The offensive and defensive ones are short and/or limited enough, and there are enough kit restrictions to prevent the Sword Angel from becoming a ’one person army’, so to speak. Ironically, the S.A. can take on some of the most powerful enemies in the game almost single-handedly(in my experience) while some of the moderately tough ones will make short work of it. Improved TorGal/DeArnise Hold was a little rough, while the S.A. beat the chapter 6 Bhodi pretty much single handedly with minimal buffing(took several reloads because Drizzt kept getting killed). Beholders, liches, improved Gromnir, Wraith Saravok(and some others I have forgotten) on the other hand, gave the Sword Angel a beating. For testing purposes I fought the improved Balthazar and was only able to defeat him once in honorable combat(one-on-one)...he was pretty harsh. On the flip side, he was good for keeping one of the Five in the final battle occupied and could stand his ground(The Monk's new attacks were LETHAL! Tiger Strike and Shadowless kick especially! Kudos to T.G.M.!) without getting killed.
My unbiased opinion- On a scale of 1 to 10, I give the Sword Angel a 9.5(the Undead Hunter is the only one that [narrowly] rates higher). There were two things that kept me from giving it a 10 and both points were minor ones. 1)Being silenced will prevent them from using their HLA’s with the exception of Merciful Fighting(and the Improved version). 2)Banish, was good...well balanced. If the undead or demonic creatures around the S.A. aren’t destroyed outright...it usually means the Sword Angel’s @$$. But in close quarters I thought the S.A. was left far too vulnerable with the enemies that were not destroyed coming right back in the fight with no adverse effects. It was one aspect of the kit I hardly used though. One of those ‘last resort’ kind of things. I could never get Banish to work against pit fiends though. They always managed to do something to disrupt me before I could get it finished !
I can’t suggest any realistic changes since I don’t really understand the limits of modding and it’s a great kit as is. Well done!

[Littiz]

Sincere thanx for this "final" report, @Caveman
9,5 you say... I'm sure we can do better

Being silenced will prevent them from using their HLA?s with the exception of Merciful Fighting

Hm, not really intentional. Still, I see it is fitting for some HLAs like heroism... there's no such thing as a "verbal component", but somehow being able to speak would be necessary.
Maybe I'd just remove this issue for Spiritual Integrity...
I'm not really sure what flag is involved though, I have just a suspicion.

For the moment, it's gone in my TODO/NOTES list (yes, I have one!)

It was one aspect of the kit I hardly used though. One of those ?last resort? kind of things.

This one was heavily debated between me and TGM, what you see now is the final result: I like it as a last resort ability, it's not intended to be used everyday.
Anyway it might be made more effective if necessary

[Caveman]

9,5 you say... I'm sure we can do better

True, true! Improvements can be made to anything.

@Not being able to use HLAs when silenced- I didn't think it was a bug since the same thing happened to the rest of the party as well. If it can be changed, good enough. If not, I think there are some ways to deal with it in-game.
@Banish- It performs consistently in its current state. The only thing I could think of to improve it would be to have any surviving undead and/or demonic creatures make a saving throw or suffer some degree of damage and/or flee. But this might raise balance issues.

I intend to dual class the kit. I have just been debating on what point in the game to do it. Though it seems like it would waste too much of the kit's potential for the advantages of spellcasting.

[Littiz]

@Not being able to use HLAs when silenced- I didn't think it was a bug since the same thing happened to the rest of the party as well.If it can be changed, good enough. If not, I think there are some ways to deal with it in-game.

Hm..
Then the issue will be debated with TGM. Probably we'll need to do some fixing here and there, if possible.

I intend to dual class the kit. I have just been debating on what point in the game to do it. Though it seems like it would waste too much of the kit's potential for the advantages of spellcasting.

As an old fan of the Kensai/Mage, I attempted - at first - to create a different version of that kind of character.
As we worked to give shape to the original TGM's idea to refine the entire HLAs system, I started to think about a possible table for S.A., and I really like what it has become now.

At this point I'm really "torn apart"... I've not played in many months, and when I'll finally have the chance to play again, I don't know anymore which path should I take: dual it, or not?!?

[Caedwyr]

Earlier it was mentioned that the ideal for this kit was to implement a way to provide non-lethal resolutions to most fights. It seems that someone has managed to introduce such a feature to BGII, and has provided a tutorial on how it can be done.

http://forums.blackw...hp?showtopic=40

[T.G.Maestro]

Thanks for the info Caedwyr, I've also seen that a day ago or so.

Littiz?

[Littiz]

Thanx for the info, @Caedwyr!

I've had a quick run through the tutorial... my first impression is that, despite the first impression, it is not truly what we need here
Ehm, I'll be clearer.

Our greatest problem here are dialogs. External reactions: this is what is truly missing, and to add them in a reasonable way I still think the best method would be to add a "generic-multi script", forced, at some point, upon "spared" creatures.
This would trigger brief reactions and dialogs choosen basing on race, intelligence, wisdom, the SA's charisma, or anything else.

Certainly we can't think about altering the dialogs and the scripts of all the creatures in the game, while this solution would be appliable.
Still, I can think about a dozen of problems already, and I haven't even tried to implement it...

I don't know.
Using such a solution, everything else would be secondary.
I could add XPs via the script itself, basing on the creature's power.
Loot then has never been a real problem, given the "philosophy" of this kit.

EDIT: I might anyway report that we are working on some minor improvements for the kit, at this stage.

Edited by Littiz, 11 October 2004 - 11:59 AM.

[Caedwyr]

What I was thinking though, was if the Sword Angel is supposed to specialize in non-lethal combat, it'd be nice if such a non-lethal system existed for everyone, but the Sword Angel was just better than most at it.

Of course a problem with that would it would make the Sword Angel a bit less distinctive, but a plus would be better integration into the game if others can do the same thing, just not as well.

[Littiz]

I see what you mean... but seeing things from that side, the crazy amount of work wouldn't be justified in our case (I'll keep an eye on the issue and on that thread, though! If it gets the interest of more modders...)
I still hope one day I can attempt to work on my previously explained idea, too. Maybe when RtW will be finally out and other activities will be reduced...

Being here, I'll just do a more detailed report.
Improvements for the Sword Angel in V2:

• Merciful Figthing re-implemented. *Much* better and cleaner system for activating/deactivating the ability
  
• Thx to our recent discoveries and a fitting suggestion from TGM, a S.A. won't be able to score criticals while using Merciful Figthing
  
• Improved Criticals will be added to the HLA table (as for fighters, but S.A. won't get Toughness)
  
• Probably a new kit specific ability will be added. *If* I can convince TGM about the one I have in mind, it might have Heroism as a prerequisite

Edited by Littiz, 11 October 2004 - 01:22 PM.