73 replies to this topic

[Caveman]

Here's some feedback. Enjoy!:
I'm using the S.A. kit with (all)Refinements components, Virtue, Rogue Rebalancing, Ascension, and Tactics mods and the BD fixpack. No real bugs or flaws to report. Just how the kit handled against improved opponents(from the Tactics mod in this case) and my impressions of it. I'll try to keep to the point but bear with me, sometimes I go off on a rant.
This kit...I love it! Well thought out and developed and has definite potential, especially when the HLA's become available. Their being able to use (most)bracers and gauntlets, as opposed to Kensai not, was a great addition. So what if it makes them a little harder to hit, etc.? I think they are an even trade-offs for exposure to critical hits. I was glad to see them Immune to Fear and Morale failure, that goes without saying.
Started the game off by 'cheating', but it was the only one I allowed myself: Instead of rolling a new character, I changed my paladin from BGI to a fighter and imported it(now all I have to is get rid of that portrait...) dropping some stats and placing them in WIS, CON, and INT (DEX already maxed).
I wouldn't do otherwise, but in the interest of testing and if time allows I'll go back and dual to a mage.
Proficiencies: *** in Katana(My blade of choice. Keeping the chance to stun of Celestial Fury in mind and the single-sided blade goes well with the kit)
* Quarterstaff and ** in Single Weapon Style
Started off with: Spiritual Harmony x2, Lay on Hands x1, Merciful Fighting On/Off(The animation is perfect btw. Visible when surrounded.), plus Draw Upon Holy Might x2, Cure Light Wounds x2, and Slow Poison x2. Refresh my memory, if need be, but were the last three Bhaalspawn powers from BGI?
So far so good? Let me see, what else? Oh, yeah. I mentioned me going off on a rant sometimes. Here's an example: Irenicus' Dungeon....It took me 3 days and 23 hours in game, I don't know how many real-time but it took three days, and 40+ clicks of the reload the reload button. Most(but not all) of these were because of Ilyich and Comrades' improvements by Tactics. I wouldn't mention it except that the S.A. made the difference in the fight after the usual tips and tricks didn't seem to work. I spare everyone the details...most of them I don't recall...but DUHM + Spiritual Harmony + the appropriate weapon = dead golems.
*The other reloads and the long time spent in the dungeon were from the inability to disarm traps early in the game. This taxed the party of healing potions(left the dungeon with 3. IIRC I picked these up after the fight with Ilyich) and forced me to rest constantly. This almost defeated the purpose, since a Durgear Proletariat and Mage showed up every time(and didn't even have the decency to bring coffee! ) and it was trouble keeping anyone from taking damage.
Point to make: The improved dungeon is beatable using the S.A. without cheating. It was no fun by any definition, point of fact: It was a Pain in the A$$. Classic argument for using 'Dungeon Be Gone'.
Comments, observations, etc. on the Sword Angel:
#1- Merciful Fighting(sorry if I don't abbreviate here ) seems to knock out unarmored opponents with ease. So far, I have not been able to render an armored humanoid unconscious. I just now thought to display the dice-rolls and compare. I don't think this is a bug though.
#2- S.A.'s missle weapon restriction, like the Cavalier and Kensai, doesn't apply to throwing axes and daggers. No bother though.
#3- I noticed that the PC and Yoshimo took a -1 penalty to AC when dual-wielding. Again, I don't know if this is a bug or not. I haven't read through all the doc's of the mods I've installed yet(I did see the part in the kit doc that mentioned them almost being prevented from dual-wielding)
#4- A little nitpicking-- I thought it was kind of odd that S.A.'s cannot go beyond 1 point in Clubs. Clubs, by design, are really defensive weapons. You really have to try to inflict a mortal injury with one. Again, no big deal. They're not a weapon I have used much, with the exception of Bone Club +2.
Thoughts for future improvements:
*Blunt weapons: Kit-specific, or the ability when using one, that has a chance to Slow(broken leg), cause a severe THACO penalty(broken arm), or Stun(broken head).
*Defeating opponents without killing them. I saw the posts discussing this from a while back. My solution, I don't know how feasible it is: - Undead get hit by certain weapons and destroyed outright if they fail a saving throw. What about (while the Merciful Fighting is activated)just 'killing' opponents and getting the xp and whatever they're carrying? Only replace '<enemy name> Death' in the display with something less permanent, like 'Opponent Vanquished' or something.

I know I forgot something..... I'll edit this post or include it in the next one.

[Littiz]

Thanx for your feedback Caveman!
Replies

Their being able to use (most)bracers and gauntlets, as opposed to Kensai not

Indeed, I thought odd they couldn't use them. Also odd that a trained and skilled fighter gets easily hit by goblins all the time.

I was glad to see them Immune to Fear and Morale failure, that goes without saying.

Another agreement!
The character wouldn't be as much believable, without this.

It took me 3 days and 23 hours in game

Ilych kinda messes the judgement here.
I personally never install Ilych, having to spend days and days while escaping a dungeon ruins my RP interpretation, frankly

Merciful Fighting On/Off(The animation is perfect btw. Visible when surrounded.)

Thanx! I thought it had to be "highly" visible
You have the portrait icon, too

but were the last three Bhaalspawn powers from BGI?

Yep.

and the long time spent in the dungeon were from the inability to disarm traps early in the game.

That's Swashimoen's fault, not S.A.'s!

I haven't read through all the doc's of the mods I've installed yet

Bad move...

have not been able to render an armored humanoid unconscious. I just now thought to display the dice-rolls and compare. I don't think this is a bug though.

Yes please, try checking the saving throws

S.A.'s missle weapon restriction, like the Cavalier and Kensai, doesn't apply to throwing axes and daggers. No bother though.

This *may* be changed. I think some freedom for the player now and then doesn't hurt, but still... do you think they should be removed?

I thought it was kind of odd that S.A.'s cannot go beyond 1 point in Clubs.

Remember that he's a martial-trained fighter, and I want some elegance as a trait.
A club is just a wooden thingie you crush on your opponent's head.
You *can* use it of course, but you don't train with it.

Defeating opponents without killing them. I saw the posts discussing this from a while back. My solution, I don't know how feasible it is: - Undead get hit by certain weapons and destroyed outright if they fail a saving throw. What about (while the Merciful Fighting is activated)just 'killing' opponents and getting the xp and whatever they're carrying? Only replace '<enemy name> Death' in the display with something less permanent, like 'Opponent Vanquished' or something.

I think the "Undead Destroyed" string is simply added to the normal death feedback. If you kill an opponent, by the engine rules, it'll say it has died.
Then, I wouldn't be much fond of a similar solution. If *you* knock out someone, are you granted that he'll just stay in a "vanquished" state forever, by "game rule"? No, it's just an action you *decide* to do. This possibility is something the Sword Angel had to have at all costs.
What I'll try to do, for future version, is try to implement a chance for the opponents to become neutral, and say something, if needed. Of course this isn't minor work, and requires additional planning for situations that involve key-characters.



A last question:
what about potions of strenght?
ATM I've disabled STR belts, gauntlets and STR-enhancing weapons.
Did nothing about potions. Do you think the player should have the chance to use them, or is it better to disable them as well?

[stinky_Ogre]

I'm sure someone's suggested this, but what if by using merciful fighitng, and knocing the opponent unconscious, they drop their loot and you get the XP, essentially killing them. Then, if/when they get up, the party can knock them out again, without getting the rewards(is that even possible?). If the player does kill them, still without XP and loot, then the S.A. becomes fallen.

As for strength potions, what is excessively strength enhancing? I think that they could keep them. What if they aren't quite strong enough to help someone in need? I think a quick strength boost would be in order.

[amazinggameguru]

Your AC drop when dual wielding is from your single weapon style. It grants you an AC boost as long as you only have a 1 handed weapon equipped. When you switch to dual wield you lose this bonus

Amazinggameguru

[Caedwyr]

The merciful fighting does have some uses. Knocking almost dead mages that still have loads of spell defences, or new physical defenses unconscious can be useful. Also, I believe that Littiz has mentioned how in later builds of Refinements, there will probably be additional scripting solutions that will allow for a player to resolve many combat situations in non-violent ways that are in line with the morals of the Sword Angel. The improved merciful fighting gives a chance for every blow delivered while the ability is activated to cause the enemy to fall unconscious. That can be very powerful when used properly.

[Caveman]

@Littiz
The Sword Angel is still proving to be an excellent kit. My only real concern: It will take some foresight to develop it to full potential (proficiencies and HLA's) but that applies to any class/kit. Before I go much farther I will have to decide what to put proficiency points toward. Grand Mastery in one sword type, definitely. Staff... undecided. 5 *'s in more in another sword(s) or distribute them. IMO it would be a waste, in the case of this kit, to put a single point in any weapon. 2-handed sword being the only possible exception. Decisions, decisions....
I had to change my tactics a little, not having the benefit of armor or 2 slots in Dual Wielding. I should probably get out of the habit of using the dialogue to provoke fights too! Don't want to end up fallen(I will do it just to test it though)!
Immunity to Fear & Morale Failure-

The character wouldn't be as much believable, without this.

No doubt. IMO- Anyone who wouldn't seek not to kill in a fight-to-the-death confrontation or make an effort not to cause unnecessary injury would hardly be frightened of anything, pain or death least of all.

I personally never install Ilych, having to spend days and days while escaping a dungeon ruins my RP interpretation, frankly

Right-right! It was a little time consuming. I just had to test the S.A.'s skills, which were proven. I would have had to reload many more times had I been playing my usual, preferred, tried-tested-& trusty U.H. Looking back it was well worth the time and trouble to get the xp and equipment they had.

You have the portrait icon, too

Oh yes! The heart symbol. That is a good representation of the ability.

That's Swashimoen's fault, not S.A.'s!

Oh, I know. It was just late at night/early in the morning when I posted and I was too lazy to look for the place where it really belonged!
Not reading the doc's-

Bad move...

I have now. I had to get them printed out so I could read them when I was away from a computer. A lot of printing to do and I didn't want to use my paper and ink to do it!

Yes please, try checking the saving throws

Got them displayed now. I will start paying more attention to them.
Throwing Axes & Daggers-

I think some freedom for the player now and then doesn't hurt, but still... do you think they should be removed?

...Now that's a tough question for me to answer. I have never armed a PC with a throwing dagger and seldom with a throwing axe. Did it with S.A. just to test the prohibition on missle weapons). I have used Azuredge(thrown) to drop more than a couple of liches in one hit. That was with an U.H. though, so it may not work that well with the S.A. kit. I would have to say no to removing them. If it's any help in deciding: Realistically, it doesn't take much to throw a knife or a small axe(from my POV). It's a secondary use for secondary weapons, IMO. Not really worth going through the trouble of changing the kit for. Like you said, let the player have the option. I don't really see them conflicting with the S.A.'s martial doctrine.
On Clubs-- I see your point. They are at odds with the name of the kit now that I think about it. Not to mention a 'primative' weapon by most standards, not as elegant as a good sword. (But, some really elegant moves can be done with them )

What I'll try to do, for future version, is try to implement a chance for the opponents to become neutral, and say something, if needed.

Ok. Now, I see what you mean. That will be no small task.
On strength enhancing potions-- Another tough question and something else I hardly have my PC use, DUHM I use all the time(Glad you left THAT! )... ...I would have to say let S.A.'s use them. Kind of what stinky_Ogre was saying; STR(in game) can be used for other things besides inflicting more damage, say forcing a lock or boosting carry weight. Rare events. Again, IMO, not really an issue or worth devoting any significant amount of time toward restricting their use.
I had remembered what I forgot to mention in my last post, but I forgot it again... (My mind has been elsewhere the past few days... ) It was nothing of any real concequence. It will come to me again though.
Further feedback and updates will be posted as information becomes available. Please stay tuned.

[Caedwyr]

A small hint for what makes a powerful weapons combo. Try using staves. There are some really powerful staves out there and the sword angel weapon restrictions fit right in with making the SA very effective with them. Staff of the Ram, Serpent Staff, Staff of Rynn, Elemental Staves. Plus there are a number of nice staves in some of the weapons mods. Its a good chance to try out a weapon type that isn't normally taken by most fighters.

[Caveman]

@stinky_Ogre:

I'm sure someone's suggested this, but what if by using merciful fighitng, and knocing the opponent unconscious, they drop their loot and you get the XP, essentially killing them. Then, if/when they get up, the party can knock them out again, without getting the rewards(is that even possible?).

I think the plan is to make the opponents do something like defeated vampires do, change form when hp </= 0. You get the points and they turn blue and cease attacking.
@amazinggameguru

Your AC drop when dual wielding is from your single weapon style.

Thanks! I never noticed that, before. Talk about the large print giving and the fine print taking away!
@JTrebeil
Restrictions on girdles and gauntlets of strength- Good question. My thoughts, and I could be wrong; Belts and gauntlets that boost strength give a damage bonus and it remains in effect until the item is removed(Potions and spells, on the other hand, are temporary). In-game: This inherently gears them toward offense(damage bonus) compared to DEX enhancing items, which would serve a defensive purpose(AC bonus). In general: Strength, to someone who is well trained in the use of swords, is only important when it comes to choosing the type/size and weight of a sword to use. Unless they want to separate a body part from someone! Which doesn't go well with the S.A.'s style of fighting.
Merciful Fighting-- Exactly what Caedwyr said, about mages. I hope, as the THAC0 increases, the same will apply to heavily armored/low AC fighters and clerics(no reason it shouldn't). And theives too. Like the ones that like to drink a Pot. of Invisiblity and go straight to one of your low hp mages and start backstabbing. High THAC0 S.A. + Improved Merciful Fighting + Haste has real potential.
EDIT
@Caedwyr & Staves: Yeah! I think they get overlooked a lot. I've always put at least one point in the Quarterstaff slot regardless of the class/kit I was playing. IIRC, I took out the Demilich with the Staff of Rynn in the hands of my UH. The Staff of the Magi(4 or 5 *'s) would be a good one for a Sword Angel/Mage.

Edited by Caveman, 27 March 2004 - 01:12 AM.

[Littiz]

First of all, I meant Merciful Fighting as a roleplaying *option*.
I've always found extremely annoyoing the fact that I *had* to kill everyone, despite my will.
Oh, and if you're worried about some lost loot, you've not really understood the spirit of this kit.
I've always renounced to lots of items while playing (ex: leaving the Oasis through Mass Invisibility, to avoid a massacre).
Would you kill everyone in your way to loot their pockets from their bodies?
This kit requires some interpretation to be properly played. I know that the classical CRPG attitude "I have to kill everyone, grab everything they might leave, do ALL the quests, and also kill some *birds* for the maximum XP-count" is something hard to forget, at first.

I can see some merit in the complaints about lost XPs, but it's not a big issue, really.
You won't want to spare monsters (in most cases), and there are plenty of XPs through the game.
Trust me, I've already played the game without maximizing the kills.
Maybe I will try to do something about XPs sooner or later, but basically this is the problem: when a creature is *killed*, the engine reads its CRE file, and gives the right amount of XPs. Lame, but you have to kill to get those points.
If/when I'll apply some scripting solutions to handle the possibility for a spared creature to turn neutral, I might grant some XPs from there, but again, I don't feel this as a high priority.
The important thing is that the kit gets the *option* to behave properly in every circumstance.
Frankly I don't consider a problem finishing the game with 7.127.000 Xps instead of 7.632.123, as long as I can play with greater freedom.

Some corrections, anyway.
You don't fall for NOT using Merciful Fighting.
Ok, maybe I'd like the idea, but the game would be absolutely unplayable.
Again, this is just a RP *option* (necessary imho; no, I won't EVER remove it) which happens to have some uses, as Caedwyr points out (but think also about charmed-dominated party members! )
The falling mechanism is *mainly* dependant on Sim's Virtue Mod, this is why I whole-heartedly suggest NOT to use this kit without Virtue installed.

STR-enhancing items.
Caveman said it all, add that equipping a STR-enhancing item somehow you lose control over your body and the damage you can inflict.
A Sword Angel Bhaalspawn will be forced into many battles by plot, of course, but this cannot change the original intent and attitude. He will simply avoid those items. I think I should even disable the most powerful STR potions, after all, since once you've quaffed them, you can but wait for the effects to expire...
Lastly, I needed a major week point. I couldn't find a more fitting solution, imho

DUHM I use all the time(Glad you left THAT!

Ehehe, plot stuff. You'll have to control the beast, Slayer included
hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, idea. What about falling for turning in the Slayer again, after the first time?
Don't know if it's doable, but hey. Fitting, after all

[Schatten]

"I have to kill everyone, grab everything they might leave, do ALL the quests, and also kill some *birds* for the maximum XP-count

this is not the crpg way its the powergamers way like me.
you are right. you can beat the game easily without killing every single monster and doing every quest. and it isnt really important to script so much because otherwise you would be 2 lvl lower.

[Littiz]

Done.
Intentional Slayer-change causes S.A. to fall.

This implies that now the Kit must be installed AFTER Ascension, for better compatibility.

[Caveman]

Ehehe, plot stuff. You'll have to control the beast, Slayer included
hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, idea. What about falling for turning in the Slayer again, after the first time?

Don't know if it's doable, but hey. Fitting, after all

Done.

Intentional Slayer-change causes S.A. to fall.

Cool, cool. Very appropriate. I never used it myself...I would rather have the discounts a 20 rep. gets.

This implies that now the Kit must be installed AFTER Ascension, for better compatibility.

errrr... I'm not going to have to start all over again am I? Saved games where the S.A. could change into the Slayer should be compatible with the new version. Right?

EDIT:
I just remembered; When I first encountered Ilyich two dialogue options were available. Talk to him or attack him while he was talking I chose the second option(What can I say? It was day 2 in r/l! ) and did not fall (or suffer a reputation or virtue loss). Should this have been grounds for fallen status?

Edited by Caveman, 27 March 2004 - 09:27 AM.

[Littiz]

No need to restart. When you'll install a newer BETA, slayer change will cause to fall.

About Ilych: I fear we'll have to accept that not everything will be addressed, especially in Version 1, and especially in regard of mods. Besides, I've never played Ilych, since it's exagerate and doesn't really have the "epic" feeling, for me.
Sometimes Weimer likes to joke

Many of the virtue issues (for the original game and many mods) are addressed by the Virtue mod, and I am relying heavily on that one.
I'll add stuff as I notice it, I will check this problem, but don't know if I'll be able to do something right now. Anyway this would cause additional installation ordering issues.

[Caedwyr]

Immunity to damage bonuses won't work, since a penalty to damage is just a negative bonus, which ruins the merciful fighting styles.

[Littiz]

I'm not using it JUST as a balance tool, I really think that STR-enhancing items should be avoided.
In fact, I've just blocked Giant Strenght Potions.
It was just me being lazy, since it was a matter of seconds.
Plain Potion of Strength is still usable.

About Ilych: on a second thought, it can live that way. I set some limits, but I can't play the game in place of the player: one could use Merciful Fighting after attacking, some other NPC may trigger the dialog, etc.

[T.G.Maestro]

There are some really powerful staves out there and the sword angel weapon restrictions fit right in with making the SA very effective with them. Staff of the Ram, Serpent Staff, Staff of Rynn, Elemental Staves.

Since the Serpent Staff is a poisonous weapon, it shouldn't be useable by the Sword Angel.

Besides, I've never played Ilych, since it's exagerate and doesn't really have the "epic" feeling, for me.

Hmm, somewhat offtopic, but yes, in some aspects that encounter lacks the epic feeling. It is a shame, since that modification is clearly one of the best ideas from Weimer. Having such a great challange at the start makes the Dungeon very interesting and tactical - I LOVE Ilych & Co., but I truly hate those cheating Shadow Thief imitating Fighter-Mages.