149 replies to this topic

[Littiz]

eeeww, and I keep spending time on version 1, trying to figure out impossible ideas to solve things perfectly, and make people happier....
Lesson learned.
Some points though.

In 1 second you can pump out 1000 spells if they have 0 casting time, and a sorc has the chance to bring many spells, up to 8th level, to 0 casting time.
Something a mage cannot do.
So within that single second, they can cast all the spells they want + ALSO a 9th level spell, as long as it is cast last in the chain. I've just tried.
Again remember: all of these sorcs' abilities are INNATES. They don't consume slots.
Improved Alacrity for mages does consume slots.

If you call spell selecting "micromanagement", then even mages suffer of the same sickness, I fear. You just need to use Autopause: Spell Cast, which you'd need anyway to properly use Alacrity.

Removing Energy Blades seems necessary, at this point. It has definite sense, and you can't have, as we say in Italy, "a full barrel and a drunken wife".!

Last point, arguments about resting have little merit for me.
This mod, in the first place, doesn't intend to have as audience those players that like to rest for years to be always at full power, constantly change their spell charts, and all.
We try to give a better support for roleplaying.

My mages *always* go low in spells while adventuring, and have to pay the price for having to choose spells beforehand.
If people cheese like hell, through infinite rests and constant spell chart changes, it's not my fault, and this mod isn't going to please those players.

I don't know what to add, I've tried to alter things in the last moment to second your requests, @Rath, and basically you're the only one who complains so heavily about sorcs.
I'm running out of miracles.
To me this solution is absolutely fine. It works good.

About the 2 spells per round idea: as I said, it's not implementable.
TGM and I aren't going to insert in our mod things that clearly look as game hacks.
And if you see the solution used by the creator of the druidic/sorcerer kit, you'll see that that one requires indeed a lot of micromanagement.

But, if you can change how the *engine* works, I'll put the ability in, deal?

[Caedwyr]

For difficult battles I always use autopause. Typically I'll try a run through without autopause, but when I can't succeed that way I micromanage, which requires the autopause feature. Also, whenever I use improved alacrity, I set the autopause for when spells are cast. That way I can maximize the effect of the Improved Alacrity. Also from a RP perspective. If my caster is essentially using their mental powers to cast spells, then shouldn't the rate at which they can do so, be limited by the speed of their thoughts, and not how fast the player can enter the info on the keyboard. One of the reasons I like BGII so much is the fact that their is an autopause feature. I've always been bugged by the way the computer in a Real Time Strategy game can give multiple simultaneous orders which allows for maneuvars the player is incapable of, since they cannot give delayed orders. Two or three pronged simultaneous attacks are impossible in such games, due to the limits of the interface.

The same comments have been made about the duration of Improved Alacrity. People have said that the duration is so short that the spell is useless. However, the spell becomes one of the cheesiest spells in the spell book, when used in a way that maximizes its power. You can't please both sides.

Regarding the 2 spells per round, I personally think this is a better solution. However, as Littiz has said, the implementation does not fit with the style of "seamless integration" that Refinements strives for. I believe that the solution Littiz has suggested is the way to go

POSSIBLE SOLUTION FOR SORCS

-Spellcasting Speed Increase requirement changed to: Casting by Intent
-Energy Blades removed, no more 10th level spells at all
-Sorcs gain a new ability, called Aura Cleansing or something.
This ability is a sorc's attempt to emulate, by innate, the effect of Improved Alacrity.
It indeed works the same, but they can keep it for just ONE SECOND.
This ability has Spellcasting Speed Increase as a requisite, so it can be used from the first time to cast floods of level 1 spells (using the autopause option, of course).
As they increase their spellcasting speed, that single segment may be used to cast more powerful spells in chain.
The weak point is that you can't move, or you'll lose all the available time. Spells like time stop would consume the whole segment, even if cast by a fully equipped sorc (Vecna + Amulet of Power + SSI x3), so at most they should be cast last.
Then, level 10th spells not being available to sorcs, we'd have again some more potential for mages.
Non-official item mods could ruin this balance, alas.

The sorcerer still gets an ability that allows them to unleash a flood of spells, which suits the natural/instinctive nature of the class's ability, but does not allow for a flood of level 9 spells. Also, since Spellcasting Speed Increase will need to be selected multiple times, the power of the ability will grow, which from a RP perspective makes sense.

My only request is to allow Aura Cleansing to be chosen multiple times, the same way Greater Whirlwind can be chosen many times.

[T.G.Maestro]

I completely agree with your idea Littiz, I find it a fitting solution - it should be implemented as soons as possible .
Yet after thinking a LOT on this class, a few more technical improvements are needed. One of these is Caedwyr's suggestion: make Aura Cleansing selectable more times, 3 should be sufficient. BUT, since the sorcerer uses his own body to achieve this intensive spellcasting speed increase, a fatigue effect (with a -2 modifier) after this innate would be fitting/required. Maybe the one you used for the Sword Angel, the one that disables spellcasting for 2 rounds? I think it'd be adequate.
On the other hand, a small boost to Sorcerers: Increase Spellcasting Speed should be selectable 5 times. It would allow this class to use different items, not only that boring combination of Vecna/AoPower. I really want this in, I never liked the idea that sorcerers can only become the "fastest spellcasters of Faerun" if they find and wear 2 specified magical items.

[Rathwellin the Bard]

The only combat autopause I use is on party member death. I have all the feedback on so I can manually pause when casting spells under IA. Usually I cast Timestop, then IA, then unload a few other spells. I do this mostly so that I can concentrate on micromanaging the IA without hurting the rest of the party.

I don?t use much in the way of party scripts most of the time either.

These days I strive to have less than two mages per party simply so I don?t have to think so much.

2 spells per round does seem pretty ?seamless? to me. You see Jon-bon tossing spells out super quickly. This ability is in one mod kit already & it?s in an item from the Imoen romance mod. If you can?t do it as part of this mod then you can?t. It just seems so perfect....

Actually I?m focused on Sorcerers because I?m playing one right now ? well sort of. I?m going against every anti-munchkin bit of conscious I have and I?m playing the Druidic Sorcerer I?ve mentioned a few times with Tactics, Item Upgrade, and Imoen Romance plus a few others. So I?ve got sorcerer on the brain even if I?m not really satisfied with this current game. I?ll probably quit once I finish SoA.

I?ve already planned my next game though. I?ll be reprising Talion, my 7th level fighter dualed to a Shapeshifter using the FW Banter Pack, Kelsey (to test your Sorcerer changes), Unfinished Business, and the FW Flirt packs. I?m probably not going to use much of Tactics & definitely not Item Upgrade. I?ll have the infinite stacking from Ease of Use & the Bottomless Bags of holding (I hate inventory management), but that?s about it. I?ll have Jahiera, Minsc, Yoshimo/Imoen, & Kelsey in my party. I?ll probably leave one spot floating unless I find another good NPC mod. I?ll only be doing the Druid?s Grove quest & the thieves guild quest before heading off to Spellhold & I?ll be saving Watchers Keep for late in the game. I?m looking forward to seeing how this group does once they hit ToB with the new HLAs.

Anyway to cut a long post short I don?t really plan on caring too much about the Sorcerer HLAs when I play BGII with your Refinements mod, it?s more of an intellectual thing. I like most of the changes you?ve made to the other kits & classes, but the Sorcerer changes have just struck me as being both unbalancing and, in some cases, not to my taste. I bitch because I?m interested in using your work & am excited by many of your ideas ... just not all of them.



Oh, and just for the record I?m not sure that I really understood your 1 second thing the first time you posted it. I?m still pretty sure that it doesn?t thrill me. Seems a lot like IA with slightly different effects.

And TG I am going to go insane if you add one more side effect to an HLA. You talk about breaking the ?flow? of the game. *THAT* does it big time. The Bio HLAs don?t have any side effects. Each side effect you add highlights the difference between your work and the default game. It makes your changes stand out in a very glaring way. And it makes the game harder to play. I understand that you don?t want to make cheesy powers. I hope that you understand that I don?t want to work harder to enjoy this game. I would rather you made the new HLAs *less* powerful and have no side effects than powerful with side effects. I care more about playability than ?wouldn?t it make sense? or ?isn?t this cool?. These others are important but not at the expense of ease of play.

[Littiz]

The druidic sorcerers kit doesn't grant a real implementation of the 2 spells/round limit.
It adds, in an complicated way, a window of 1 SECOND of aura cleansing effect each round.

This translates in 2 spells/round *only* if you don't have spellcasting speed enhancing equipment, or... sorcs' spell casting speed increase!

Basically, it's again a pure Improved Alacrity effect.
As I said, a 2 spells round limit is NOT TRULY IMPLEMENTABLE.
That work-around works if the player collaborates in making it work.

@TGM: please, don't let me point the obvious
To do a fair comparison, you have to consider equivalent equipment.
Without equipment, sorcs can lower by 3 points the speed of each spell, this makes them the fastest spellcasters, of course.
Equipment is an addition, and is appliable to anyone.
Furthermore, with 5 picks it'd be far too easy to cast again flows of 9th level spells. I say 3 picks is absolutely perfect
I second Rathwellin in a point though: no fatigue effects this time!

[T.G.Maestro]

As I said, a 2 spells round limit is NOT TRULY IMPLEMENTABLE

Truth, the "Increase Spellcasting Speed" effect (don't confuse it with our sorcerer HLA!) doesn't work as stated in the effect description. It can only grant a TRUE Improved Alacrity effect if you set the Non-meaningful parameter to 1 and leave the Spells/round parameter at 0. Setting the latter to 2 for example while leaving the non-meaningful at 0 won't do anything.

[Schatten]

you've convinced me, littiz. B)

[Caedwyr]

I've tried using Foresight several times now, and I've come the the conclusion that it is a useless ability.

1. If I am going to use a level 9 melee defensive ability, then I will use absolute immunity. Otherwise I will just stick with Stone Skin and Protection from magic weapons.

2. If my mage or fighter/mage needs to cast Foresight in order to make their saving throw, the casting speed isn't fast enough for the spell to be used in an emergency, and if I can plan ahead, I will just let one of my warriors take the hit.

Basically, there are better melee oriented spells out there, and I don't want to have my mage having to be making all of their saving throws all the time. Thats what meat shields are for.

[T.G.Maestro]

I think you are using that ability completely wrong Caedwyr. Yes, thats not a spell that one can cast in the heat of the battle, it must be cast before the battle starts. Simply imagine: if you'd like to use a 6st sense-like ability, when would you cast it? Before anything BAD happens to you, so you can avoid it, or after several arrows and Fireballs hit you..?
The saving throw thing IS very useful. Many opponents target mages with their spells and attacks, making your meat shields completely useless. Not to mention area effect spells like Slow - your warriors won't help this time either. This can be extremely useful against spells like Finger of Death, Disintegrate or any other effects that require saves. I think this is essential.
That AC bonus won't save your mage from the most dangerous opponents like bosses, but it will still make your mage MUCH harder to hit.

If I am going to use a level 9 melee defensive ability, then I will use absolute immunity

Yes. For 24 seconds. Foresight last turns.

Otherwise I will just stick with Stone Skin and Protection from magic weapons.

Which means you'll sacrifice more than 2-3 spell slots for the same goal. That PfMW lasts 24 seconds too, and your stoneskins will dissapear rather quickly if attacked by a more powerful foe. Did you ever considered the combination of Stoneskin and Foresight?

[Rathwellin the Bard]

If foresight had offensive bonuses it might be interesting.

If you know where your foe is going to dodge shouldn?t he automatically fail his saving throw when you toss that fireball or cast other offensive magic during the duration? THAT would be useful! (I?m betting that this would be a pain in the tail to script though)

Or maybe you could code it so that other spells cast during the duration do max damage ? i.e. you know *just* when and where to cast your spells.

I know that I would be interested in either or both of these effects.

[Caedwyr]

Since I almost always have Stoneskin up on my mages, it isn't like I am going to gain a spell slot from using Foresight instead. And, as you mentioned, the -15 AC isn't going to do much against any of the ToB bosses that I will encounter. What I'm trying to get at, is for melee protections, there are much better alternatives out there. While the duration of Foresight may be slightly longer than PfMW or Absolute Immunity, the time my mages will be at risk during a battle, shouldn't really be any longer than the duration of PfMW or Absolute Immunity.

I'll admit that in certain circumstances, the saving throw aspect can have its uses. My personal playstyle with mage characters means that they very rarely are ever at risk of being targetted or attacked, so I don't normally have to worry about making spell saves. I'll concede that other play styles make this more useful.


What I would suggest is to improve the physical protection aspect of the spell. One option would be to make the character immune to weapon attack for the duration of the spell. This seems overpowered however, so perhaps something else could be done instead.

[T.G.Maestro]

My only suggestion would be to increase the AC bonus to -20 and lower the save bonuses somewhat - while you say that it "can be useful", I think it is VERY overpowered in some aspects. It makes your mage literally immunte to many spells and effects.

[Caedwyr]

What we really need, is UU to tell us how all the new HLAs can be used in the latest stinky cheese.

[T.G.Maestro]

A must, I say!

[Littiz]

Playing styles.
I remember a debate with Xyx over the merits of Protection from Energy.
He won't ever rate it as better than "lame", while I always have it in my spell chart

Then, not all HLAs have to be comparable to IA.

[Caedwyr]

A couple of issues.

1. Some kits will run out of abilities to choose at high levels. The mage class, the cleric/mage and probably several others do not have abilities that can be chosen infinitely. A good solution to this would be to make the scribe scrolls ability chooseable unlimited times. I realize there is an issue about the potential to make gobs of time stop scrolls, but my experience with this ability is that the player will have a number of failures, and by choosing Scribe scrolls so many times in the hope of creating a time stop scroll, they will be missing out on some of the other powerful abilities.

2. Mage/Clerics get Comet, but normal mages don't. Comet is limited to Evokers. I'd say, keep the original Mage HLAs with the mage class, and add extra ones in for the Specialty mages.

[T.G.Maestro]

1. Some kits will run out of abilities to choose at high levels. The mage class, the cleric/mage and probably several others do not have abilities that can be chosen infinitely. A good solution to this would be to make the scribe scrolls ability chooseable unlimited times.

I agree, but I'd limit its use to 5/day.

Mage/Clerics get Comet, but normal mages don't. Comet is limited to Evokers

Comet will be removed from the cleric/mage table, thanks for pointing this out!

[Littiz]

Comet will be replaced by Foresight in all the multiclass tables.
We forgot to update them, good catch!

I can live with 3 Scribe Scrolls/day, maximum (and only for pure mages)