149 replies to this topic

[Schatten]

immunity is to much, dont you think? perhaps 50% res or something.

[Rathwellin the Bard]

Baltrek's suggestion has merit IMO. Immunity to 1st & +2 to saves vs Magic is hardly overpowering.

However I do have YAS (yet another suggestion). If you are going to give Sorcerers those icky 'elemental like' HLAs then why not re-enforce it here? Give +5% resistance to cold, fire, acid, etc.

[Jinnai]

I agree immunity is too much. even avatars and demi-gods can be harmed by 1st level spells from powerful people.

Myself i think +2 bonus to save vs. spells and 10% damage resistance to spells.

[Littiz]

Ok, Rath, you got it.
Sorc elemental stuff now grant a grand 115%

I've fixed some things (a couple of animations and so).
I think we just miss a solution for Inner Focus.
+1 CHA, + 2 save vs Spells, +5% Magic Damage resistance might do, for me.
A bit too "scattered", maybe...

[Schatten]

seems okay to me.

[Caedwyr]

I'll just chime in here to say that I really like the ranger HLA endurance. The immunity to fatigue and unconsciousness is very useful. The unconsciouness avoids problems with wing buffet effects and the special abilities of the Avatars of Poison in the Red Badge encounter of Tactics.

This ability works well, in many cases. Now my rangers can go toe to toe with a dragon and not have to worry about being put out of the battle from the wing buffets.

[Jinnai]

Ok, Rath, you got it.
Sorc elemental stuff now grant a grand 115%

I've fixed some things (a couple of animations and so).
I think we just miss a solution for Inner Focus.
+1 CHA, + 2 save vs Spells, +5% Magic Damage resistance might do, for me.
A bit too "scattered", maybe...

Drop the save then and just do +1 CHA and 10% MDR

[Caedwyr]

I'd keep the saves since the +1 cha doesn't actually do anything for the sorcerer in BGII. As has been discussed before, charisma doesn't give the sorcerer bonus spell slots. I'd say +2 save vs spells, +5-10% MDR, +1 cha (though it doesn't actually do anything). The bonus to charisma can reflect the stronger will and force of personality, which is supposedly one of the ways a sorcerer gains in power.

[Caedwyr]

Regarding the removal of improved alacrity. There is an unfortunate problem with this. While it can be argued that the removal must be done for balance issues, what with the changes to the sorcerer HLA table, the lack of the chance to learn the ability flies in the face of the emphasis that is placed by the other HLAs on the metamagic abilities of the sorcerer.

If you look at the the list of the HLAs, you will see a definate trend towards abilities that deal with the control of the essence of magic. Aside from the elemental aura set, all the other abilities deal with manipulating and controlling the basic magical forces, or the internal magical energies of the sorcerer. Since improved alacrity definately falls in the category of controlling the basic magical forces & the mage's method of interaction with them, it seems logical that improved alacrity would be an option for High Level Sorcerers.

An alternative, that would help solve the problem with what to give for Inner Focus, is to allow the sorcerer to cast 2 spells per round. If this were done, then I could see disallowing Improved Alacrity.




Remember, these are suggestions, and do not necessarily need to be put into the first release if time and frustration limits prevent them. However, I think the removal of Improved Alacrity will be the biggest complaint about the changes to the sorcerer HLA table, and those that will be doing the complaining have a valid argument for its inclusion.

[Littiz]

I expected this objection sooner or later.
We're giving a different interpretation (debatable, of course, but after all we're also trying to give some balance to the game).

In our interpretation removing the post-casting aura is something that only pure knowledge of magic can allow to attain. No spell, of any kind, normally allows to mess with that, so basically for sorcs would be too much doing it by an innate ability. Mages have to pick Arcane Knowledge before picking Improved Alacrity.

Besides, try to imagine what you could do with BOTH Spellcasting Speed Increase and IA. Simply put, we can't leave them both.

About allowing 2 spells x round, I don't think it's possible.
Maybe, and I say *maybe*, we could think about an ability similar to IA, but with a very short duration, half a round, or so.
But no, with casting time 0 in everything, half a round or 2 rounds doesn't make any difference: you can unleash the WHOLE spellbook in any case....

[Rathwellin the Bard]

The two spells per round thing is *in* the currently released Druidic Sorcerer kit so I'm pretty sure that it is possible.



I have to say that I agree 100% with what Caedwyr posted. While you guys may be making what you consider to be a more consistent & thus believable Sorcerer removing IA is a *huge* nerf. I?m not in your beta test group but to me it looks like you guys went too far in trying to ?balance? the Sorcerer as is. Sure Time Stop + IA + 3x Dragons Breath + a ton of other spells was crazy, but it did *not* kill everything and from what I can tell you still let pure mages do it. That?s a huge problem IMO. With the mod as is Mages have a *huge* advantage.

I?m not saying that Sorcerer?s ?aren?t powerful? without IA but they are no longer balanced when compared to Mages who retain it.

And what about the Wild Mage, whom IMO is far less balanced & more powerful than even a Sorcerer in an unmodded gamed? They are as powerful as ever.

If you are going to take away IA you have to do more in return for the Sorcerer than what I?ve seen to convince me that this is in any way ?balancing.?

[Littiz]

SIGH
Okay.

The effect indeed exists. If we can get it to work, it might go in. 2 spells/round for a limited time.
This raises a problem though.
We've used ALL the 24 remaining slots for portrait icons... something should be sacrificed. This ability should be called "Alacrity" or something, and it'd require a new portrait icon.

I'm open to suggestions.
Maybe Tireless Rage could just use the "enraged" icon: not being winded after the effect is already explanatory. Maybe.

[Rathwellin the Bard]

Why not simply make it permanent?

You already improve spellcasting speed permanently. Make it like Whirlwind & GWW. You have to pick improved spellcasting speed first (or make them pick it three times first if you can code it) ... then a 'greater' improved spellcasting HLA can be picked with this permanent effect.

[Jinnai]

Because you can't speed up spellcasting really. Its like skipping corners on a construction job, important corners. Sure you might get that building done, but its not going to be safe to go into.

[Littiz]

Permanent? Ah ha

Anyway, I have to reconsider my "offer" for now.
The effect is the one used by Improved Alacrity, and it just works as with Improved Alacrity.
Out of curiosity I grabbed that Druidic-Sorcerer kit: that one seems to use a heavy work-around that wouldn't look, in game, the way Refinements' stuff has to look (despite the fact that it's a clever trick!). In a word, it wouldn't work as intended: you'd receive once per round the option to cast two spells consecutively (with a SHORT improved alacrity effect), you wouldn't really be free to cast two spells per round.
That sums up with the portrait icon problem.

In addition, I'd have to ask permission to the author now that I've seen how it works

Here it goes my "devoted to RL stuff day"....

[Caedwyr]

Ok, a couple more issues.

1. It would be nice if the success rate of Scribe Scrolls had a modifier for the user's intelligence. Its the logical expectation, and can help the player create the high level scrolls. For a HLA, the player should have a good chance of success in using the ability. A int modifier is a good way to go in raising the chances of sucess for the hard scrolls.

2. Deathfield. I'd suggest increasing the penalty on this, perhaps give an increasing penalty based on the caster's level. What was adequate for lower level enemies in SoA, is pretty much completely ineffective in ToB. When I use a HLA, I want to feel like I am using some pretty powerful stuff, a feeling I am not getting when I use this. With the severe drawbacks, I want a corresponding tradeoff in terms of power for this ability.

[Littiz]

You'll admit that Use Scrolls now is much more technically elaborate than it was before.
Now, even an INT check...
eh eh you guys need engine creators, not modders.

It's not possible, unless I decide to use again the invisible creature trick (a trick I hate), and rebuild completely the HLA via script.
And it'd be a VERY LARGE script, to handle all of the possible cases (you couldn't just add a modifier, you'd have to specify each single possible combination).
Ehm, a polite way to say no, sorry

In order to be forgiven:

POSSIBLE SOLUTION FOR SORCS

-Spellcasting Speed Increase requirement changed to: Casting by Intent
-Energy Blades removed, no more 10th level spells at all
-Sorcs gain a new ability, called Aura Cleansing or something.
This ability is a sorc's attempt to emulate, by innate, the effect of Improved Alacrity.
It indeed works the same, but they can keep it for just ONE SECOND.
This ability has Spellcasting Speed Increase as a requisite, so it can be used from the first time to cast floods of level 1 spells (using the autopause option, of course).
As they increase their spellcasting speed, that single segment may be used to cast more powerful spells in chain.
The weak point is that you can't move, or you'll lose all the available time. Spells like time stop would consume the whole segment, even if cast by a fully equipped sorc (Vecna + Amulet of Power + SSI x3), so at most they should be cast last.
Then, level 10th spells not being available to sorcs, we'd have again some more potential for mages.
Non-official item mods could ruin this balance, alas.

Feedback on this one appreciated.

[Schatten]

nono.... to tell the truth i am a fan of ia.
but the solution to remove it is a good one. remember the difference between mage and sorc. a sorc can cast 6 times adhw, a mage cant (okay, he can; you know what i mean).
but on the other hand, every mage is prepared properly because you know whats coming around the next corner. and thus truly has a big advantage powerwise.
one second? what am i supposed to do there? its a bit short. i thought more like 2-3 ia is needed for one time stop. its still a big nerf. you need 3-4 9thlvl spell slots.

[Caedwyr]

Regarding Scribe Scolls, I understand. Technicial difficulties make it impractical to change it from the current form.


Your idea for a weaker version of improved alacrity sounds good. I'm not sure if energy blades needs to be removed to make it work. Since I tend to use Energy blades a fair amount to interrupt enemy casters it would require a change in my playstyle at the minimum. In a way though, it would be good to remove all of the overlap between the wizard and sorcerer HLA tables to emphasize the distinction that is being made between the classes.

I'd suggest that the new ability be made chooseable multiple times. It doesn't really affect the balance any more that being able to choose WW or GWW with a fighter, and will give somewhere for the sorcerer to put points into after they have learned all the other abilities and are still leveling up. I like the idea of the new ability being made an innate.

[Rathwellin the Bard]

I would rather you remove Energy Blades from Mages, Clerics, etc. rather than the Sorcerer given the other changes in what you are doing.

As for your ?aura refresh? idea, 1 Second is too short. It?s too hard to take advantage of that in combat. In play I would have to really micromanage my Sorcerer to the detriment of the rest of the party or I would have to have one heck of a script to take advantage of the new HLA. Personally I don?t like either solution.

If Sorcerers are really going to be ?the fastest spellcasters of the realms? then having them only be so for 1 second seems a bit silly IMO. If you are going to take away IA then give them something back that has meat.

In the unmodded game reducing spellcasting time doesn?t mean nearly as much by itself since you can only cast one spell per round anyway ... unless you are a fighter/mage and have a meaningful weapon attack you can do. It?s nice, but does little, kind of like weapon speed IMO. It?s only when you put IA into the equation that that reduced spellcasting time really starts to matter. In other words it doesn?t matter squat if a sorcerer has -3 or -5 spellcasting time without IA ... or something else to actually enable them to cast more than one spell per round.

Without items Sorcerer with no IA & just spell speed increases is weaker than Mage with IA and no spell speed increases. However when you start throwing items on top of this the balance really gets skewed. A mage with the Robe of Vecna & Amulet of Power is going to have all the advantages of the Sorcerer + IA. It becomes a tremendous imbalance in favor of the mage. There is no corresponding item or HLA to bring the Sorcerer back ?up to snuff? so to speak.

I also want to point out that it is ridiculously easy in ToB to make sure that your Mages and Sorcerers have their full load of spells in nearly every combat. With Project Image, Wish, and the Pocket Plane IA potentially gets used in *every* fight anyway if one cares to. A 1 second or even 3 round HLA ?Aura Refresh? is not going to come close to restoring balance ? not with mages pulling IA out of their tail every combat.

Permanent 2 spells per round would do a much better job of bringing things closer to balance IMO. With this in place Sorcerers would be faster than an unboosted Mage, but Mages retain their ability to boost *way* beyond the Sorcerer via IA.