397 replies to this topic

[jester]

Yeeeah! Go tigers!!


sorry, I got carried away.

[Althernai]

1) Jon Irenicus would not end up in the Abyss after his death. He would merely cease to be. He has no soul, and no divine spark... The former was reclaimed by CHARNAME, the latter had been stripped by the Seldarine.

2) Bioware seem to either not understand how FR's afterlife works, or they like the idea of certain individuals having "special fates" with regards to that. Even if Jon had a soul, he would not have ended up in the Abyss... Unless he was faithful to some CE deity. (Or he accepted the offer of a Tanar'ri while his soul was queued up on the Fugue Plane awaiting Kelemvor's judgement.)

This might be valid, but it is moderately to completely hopeless. Bioware did not seem to care very much for FR lore. For example, they misplaced Bhaal's home plane. Just take it as if Jon was special to the point of being outside the normal sequence of events. Also, IIRC they gave him a soul (but a human one -- read his journal in Spellhold; he complains about how his elven essense was replaced with that of a human or somesuch).

[Kish]

No, he says that he no longer has his elven essence, and cannot feel because he has "the threadbare heart of a human or some such short-lived vermin." Since humans can feel, this is obviously Jon being silly.

[dorotea]

Quotations, quotations. You quote Jon? Well, how about this one:

I have drained you, drained you of the very thing that made you special. It is the worst of curses, and I should know. - why is it the worst if he got something in exchange for what was taken?

No, you warrant no villain's exposition from me. You are barely sentient now. I have taken your very divinity, and drained you of your soul.

Bodhi! Remove this nothing... and Imoen as well. We are restored at their expense and need them no longer. Our revenge to come is now all the sweeter.

Have your victory here then, but know that you are dying on the inside even now! Many will join you before I am done! My home will feel my wrath!

and finally:

The curse that was wrought against Bodhi and I has now ceased and yours has begun. You will wither, you will wane, and you will die.

Wonder  - why he is so vehement if the curse was 'nothing' but removal of immortality?

And finally here is the quote from the infamous journal:

My condition grows worse, and what I remember of my 'home' is fleeting. I see images of family whose names I cannot recall, and dream of emotions I no longer feel as vividly.  On occasion I sense nature as if she is my mother, as though never removed from her bosom, but such moments are few. I bear the hallmarks of senility with the rage and power of a young elf to lament it.

I say it hardly sounds as if he was given human soul in exchange for amputated elven spirit. In fact it sounds as if he was left with nothing. But it is a matter of personal interpretation. I just want to point out that it is ver very likely that he indeed had lost ability to feel anything but anger.

I would pity my 'sister' if I was capable, but emotions come to me only in violent outbursts. Ellesime has taken my ability to truly feel, and I am left with the threadbare heart of a human, or some other short-lived vermin. I will not suffer this much longer.

[Laufey]

No, he says that he no longer has his elven essence, and cannot feel because he has "the threadbare heart of a human or some such short-lived vermin." Since humans can feel, this is obviously Jon being silly.

Yes, I agree that Jon is simply showing some elven prejudice here, and equalling being human with being soulless. Though the alternative does create some fascinating imagery. (Imagines Suldanesselar elves headed by Ellesime ripping out human souls to graft onto Jon and Bodhi.)

[Jinnai]

So then where did his soul go? Obviously it isn't in him, but from what i understand of FR lore it cannot be destroyed like that.

[dorotea]

Now, would not it be nice? I think what happened was a little less noble. Once the elf's connection with the Elven Spirit is severed - his own soul becomes a subject to corruption and rot. It simply wastes away and wanes slowly - bit by little bit. Until it is all gone. That is why I said cancer of the soul. Must be a bit painful too, I fancy. But since it was done out of 'spiritually hight regard' and to the convicted criminals it is ok, right?

[dorotea]

The said passage describes memory loss, rather than intrinsic inability to experience emotions

You know it sounds inconvincing, and I know it too. Especially since you deliberately ignored the other one...

I would pity my 'sister' if I was capable, but emotions come to me only in violent outbursts. Ellesime has taken my ability to truly feel

But I assume this can be explain by some more verbal equilibristic. If you don't want to believe in certain concept that is too horrible to comprehend - you will ignore the facts. Same is true about me of course - once I formed an opinion I will stick to it.

I can only say that it took me some time to try come up with a concept of what Bio really wanted to convey in SoA plot, and explain all their strange (to say the least) plot twists and various replicas by different personages. I had a few email exchanges with DG - and whilst he did not officially 'endorse' my plot, he did not complain about it, but said that it was a 'very good' one. I am not insisting that my explanation is the only 'true' - but it fits well with the majority of the game facts and if you remember the other Bio games - their plots are alwyas elaborate and hover in 'grey area'. Ie - there is no clearly defined 'evil' or 'good' sides. Just remember the FallFromGrace who is a neutral-good succubus - from your Pov she is an abomination.

[dorotea]

  Well, he says himself that emotions come to him, moreover come in "violent outbursts", ie the way humans feel.

Humans do not feel in violent outbursts - according to him in his other statement, humans have no feelings.

And once again I ask thee -

What is soul for in your opinion - if not for feeling love and compassion? Ie - if removal of soul does not remove ability to feel empathy (as you insist) what does it do, if anything?

If you dont have immortality - your soul can be taken with no ill effects?

And what does 'dead inside' mean? Please explain.

I would pity my 'sister' if I was capable

Which implies he 'cannot' feel pity. Which is exactly my point - he can only feel anger and other basic agressive emotions, not love or pity or anything related to compassion.

*Shrugs* Why do you always have to make any abstract discussion personal and make statements about how other people should feel about certain things, which are not being dicussed?

Cause I did not want to say 'your logic is lame'

As for the flying skull - I find his dialogs hilarious, the Bio at its best - once again we differ in our tastes.

[Althernai]

Once again, for some reason I feel obliged to correct various misconceptions of authorship. Bioware made the Infinity Engine and wrote BG1&2. Both IWD and PST were written by Black Isle -- Bioware had little to do with them except for the engine.

[Kish]

Well, he says himself that emotions come to him, moreover come in "violent outbursts", ie the way humans feel.

I.e. the way humans feel? Wtf?
*is human and does feel without violent outbursts. Occasionally*

[Kish]

That's nice, Domi, but it really doesn't justify blithe assertions that what he says actually means something quite different for which there is no evidence. "Which could mean the way humans feel" is arguable, "i.e. the way humans feel" is just wrong.

[jester]

Plus, the game has shown full independence of Irenicus actions from his soul-bearing:

Soul Status: Irenicus has perfectly functional elven soul

Actions: Irenicus conspires to ascend to godhood to destroy his native city's sacred relic and betrays his lover.

....

The case for soul and related feelings notwithstanding I think that it maybe right to assume that this is the point (quoted above) which marks the last use of 'feelings' on this matter. You feel the need for something, burning desire dictates your plans and then, even if that first impetus is lost, it depends your perseverance to pursue that plan even after losing the motives out of sight. Think of it as something like a clan feud that went on for generations. You cannot remember why, you just hate them. Not so much as a strong feeling but as a construct of reality in your head. Jon had feelings at a point. Everything else is IMHO irrelevant to him. He had a plan before and his intellect (alone) dictates his actions now.

[dorotea]

Back to square one I fear. Here we go again.

Please prove that the statements below does not indicate that his soul is no more, and that does not need a replacement.

I have drained you, drained you of the very thing that made you special. It is the worst of curses, and I should know.

No, you warrant no villain's exposition from me. You are barely sentient now. I have taken your very divinity, and drained you of your soul.

The curse that was wrought against Bodhi and I has now ceased and yours has begun. You will wither, you will wane, and you will die.

'He is dead inside' is a statement by one of the dryads who tells us that their charms have no effect - because there is nothing there they can affect - ie no soul.

What is his curse is not the ability to feel removed together with connetion with the Spirit?

I know that not believing it makes everything much simpler - everything is black and white - on one side villains on the other heroes and wonderful golden-tressed heroines with hearts of gold. Shrug. But this does not make all the basic facts of the plot go away - and Irenicus has no soul and you know it.