397 replies to this topic

[dorotea]

I am left wondering - are you saying that Ellesime is responsible for the way Jon turned out?

In a sense. If she had guts to kill him after his first attempt, the second taking of the Tree would not have happened. As it was done, I see her action as infecting of an accused criminal with a deadly desease - say cancer of the soul - and telling him, 'if you repent and atone it will be reversed and I will love you anew'. Is it a valid way to go about redemption? I am not saying it was unfair - but it was sort of more cruel than simple execution, and could not bring about any other reaction than what she had got at the end.

My version of realism says that Jon would go insane when he is made aware; after inflicting such pain, death, and destruction

Who said that he would not? And who said what I am doing to him in LR is any gentler than burning in Hell? LR is about trying to write as realistic a redemption as possible... not about sparing his feelings.

Nothing bring's Khalid, or any of the countless other victims, including Imoen, back. So I guess your point is that the only one who remains to be saved is Jon?

Technically if we speak FR, after death Khalid resides in Elysium, unless he believed in reincarnations and then he is being reborn as a new being and starts a new cycle.

Jonny's way after he gets to Abyss is to be turned into a minor demon, and (if he is cunning enough) progerss up to a Balor or even a Demon Prince. Is it truly such a 'punishment'? It irks me to see Abyssal goons gain an elven mage of his ability and potential...

I agree that it is up to the victims to grant forgiveness, for it is they who have been wronged most grievously. How does Jahiera react to Jon? IMO she'd be walking. And what about Imoen?

Yes they do walk away - if PC does not manage to convince them to stay. As to how it is done and if they feel any better/worse for what happens next - it will be seen when the mod is released. But all three original npcs have very serious reaction to Irenicus appearance, and to his later 'transformations' and it is up to PC as to how it is handled.

I do understand that I will always have to fight on two fronts - there is a community who is against spoiling perfectly evil character and villain (out of principle) and against any 'soap' redemptions and triumph of 'goodness' - after all what can be more 'unfair' to 'game balance'?

And there is a community that rebels at the notion that even such a heinous criminal can be redeemed - because it is more 'comforting' somehow to think of the story ending with him burning in Hell.

But I honestly think the story still has great potential, and I do try my best to give Bio's plot and their characters justice, and yet bring about another twist to their story, that by the way, also allows me to explore many unanswered questions related to essence of Bhaal, souls, spirits etc.

Once again - it is hellishly difficult theme to explore and I am honestly not trying to either 'glorify' evil, make PC into a willing victim of sexy torturer, or bring about another sugar sweet 'redemption' of 'irredeemable' character...

I simply think the Bio never finished Irenicus's story to a full satisfaction, and try to make an interesting and rewarding new ending (and of course you can always quit your unsuccessful attempt at redeeming Irenicus, and kill him again). If you want to imagine the story I want to 'emulate' in a sense - think Planescape Torment. In a broader sense of course, not by 'stealing' their plot.

[Hendryk]

You  misunderstand what I said about Jahiera - she would Leave. 

I don't think she would, actually. Not without Jon's head in her backpack, anyway.

The only thing I Have to do is die - anything else I do is my choice and my responsibility

I'd like to be there when you tell that to the taxman. Those guys don't get many laughs in their line of work.

For me to read that Ellesime is/may be made responsible for Jon doing what he did is.. obscene.

There are degrees of responsibility, you know. Like giving a recovering alchoholic a drink because he wants one so badly that you feel sorry for him.

Regardless of what Ellesime did or didn't do with, to or for her boyfriend the first time around, when Irenicus was caught red-handed trying to destroy the ToL, she turned him into a Not-an-Elf and just let him go. No probation officer. No guidance. No stripping-him-of-his-uber-powers-for-safety's-sake. Nothing. So I'd say her omissions left her with a pretty heavy load of responsibility for Jon's subsequent career. It certainly wasn't as though she had to *guess* what atrocities he was capable of.

[maidros]

How does Jahiera react to Jon? IMO she'd be walking.

I'm sorry, but you're not allowed to say that to Dorotea.

At least, I'm not, so I presume you're not too.

I know that the temptation to fish in troubled waters is very great, but we would be grateful to you if you did not intervene in a serious discussion when you have nothing of importance to say.
Regards,
Maidros

[maidros]

You  misunderstand what I said about Jahiera - she would Leave.  The PC would not be able to convince her to stay.  Imo, the only reason she stayed when Sarevok joined the group, if one plays it that way, is because Sarevok was no more - he was a shadow of himself, powerless.  I think the PC, with a Very high CHA, would be able to convince Imoen to stay but only because of Imoen's character and her obvious trust in/loyalty to the PC.  (I mean, come on, she doesn't leave til your rep hits 2.)  It should still be a hard sell, however, as he did ..well, whatever he did to her.

If the PC and Jae are in love, she is very unlikely to leave - she hates Irenicus passionately for all that the latter did, but she is likely to stay.

Besides, especially if the PC has a high reputation, she is unlikely to abandon him - she will certainly think he is making a mistake but she will most likely stay around just to save the PC from himself.

The third point is that leaving Jon in the abyss has its own consequences and Jaheira knows this. I can see her grudgingly accepting Jon being 'raised' as a price for ruining his plans again.

Lastly, I subscribe to the theory that no one can Make me do anything.  The only thing I Have to do is die - anything else I do is my choice and my responsibility; it'd be like me blaming a man for getting me pregnant when I was there too.  For me to read that Ellesime is/may be made responsible for Jon doing what he did is.. obscene. 

None of us is suggesting that what Jon did was caused by Ellesime (especially the first time). Jon and Jon alone was responsible for that. But 'soul stripping' is the best possible way to ensure that 'redemption' - if there is to be one - does not occur. As I see, Ellesime's mistake was choosing the wrong punishment if she wished to redeem him. And in any case, since Jon's life is unlikely to be any easier with the 'new life', the ends of justice are not voided either.

To quote Rafael Sabatini from 'Scaramouche', "I am not so sure that hell hereafter is a certainty, whilst I am sure that it can certainty in this life. Not in euthanasia, but in the agony of mind alone should the guilty atone". That I think sums up our argument.
Regards,
Maidros

[maidros]

I see your point. From my point of view, forcing CHANAME and Imoen to "help" Irenicus is emotionally exactly the same as forcing a rape victim to "help" the rapist. It heaps more emotional violence upon the victim, to the benefit of the victimizer. I could see a third party helping an amnesiac or genuinely repentant Sarevok or Irenicus; that third party might even be able to find whatever good qualities might be in S or I's character and admire them. CHANAME and Imoen would never be able to look at S or I without seeing the murders of their friends and remembering their own torture.

There is no compulsion - the PC is being given the choice at every step. More importantly, the NPC's can and will leave when PC cannot convince them to stay.

[dorotea]

It would at least feel more genuine if you were willing to make the tough design decisions and face that not every single character can fit into this sort of exercise, for reasons of instantaneous and unconditional hostility. Instead, the plotline has been over-engineered with conditions to try to force the issue, which I think saps the credibility from the concept further. Kinda like TOB's extremely wimpy handling of Sarevok, come to think of it.

Little Bunny FooFoo

I don't want to see you

scoopin' up the field mice

and boppin' em on the head.

And now I'll give you one more chance, and if you do that again, I'll start deleting your every post. JC - please understand that being polite in other people forums is a must. And you have pissed me off too many times, for me to be tolerant of your trolling. I never go to your forums, and never comment on your mods, and never give you my advice - all I ask is that you do the same with mine. Is it really hard to understand?

[maidros]

Let us get things in proper context first.

How does Jahiera react to Jon? IMO she'd be walking.

I'm sorry, but you're not allowed to say that to Dorotea.

At least, I'm not, so I presume you're not too.

I know that the temptation to fish in troubled waters is very great, but we would be grateful to you if you did not intervene in a serious discussion when you have nothing of importance to say.

At least you finally got around to being honest. I knew you couldn't hold out forever!

On the contrary, I was warning a friend of mine of the whirlwind of outrage she was likely to encounter by suggesting something as outrageous as an NPC's refusal to swallow the concept of "let's have a stroll with Irenicus."

In the first place, I would point out to you that you have already said what you had to say a few dozen times (and are continuing to say that), so 'the not allowed to say' is plain derogatory.

This has been talked about before, but I would point out to you that no one has been insulted and the ones arguing are going over this with respect for each other, without any rancour. In such a discussion, you feel fit to talk in terms of 'whirlwind of outrage'. I fail to see where comes the outrage. We have been pointing out our line of reasoning.

As for the outrageous part, - ah well - let me just say that many other things more outrageous (from our point of view) have already been coded and released, so we are not setting the precedent.

The third point is that leaving Jon in the abyss has its own consequences and Jaheira knows this.

Personally, I find the deus ex machina intervention that you're putting forward to try to compel all the NPCs to play nice even less satisfying than the core redemption concept.

It would at least feel more genuine if you were willing to make the tough design decisions and face that not every single character can fit into this sort of exercise, for reasons of instantaneous and unconditional hostility. Instead, the plotline has been over-engineered with conditions to try to force the issue, which I think saps the credibility from the concept further. Kinda like TOB's extremely wimpy handling of Sarevok, come to think of it.

We have gone over this in the past, if I remember correctly. We simply do not agree with your 'instantaneous and unconditional hostility' and there are arguments against the course you suggest as can be seen from many of the previous arguments on this forum.
Regards,
Maidros

[Merja]

At least you finally got around to being honest. I knew you couldn't hold out forever!

On the contrary, I was warning a friend of mine of the whirlwind of outrage she was likely to encounter by suggesting something as outrageous as an NPC's refusal to swallow the concept of "let's have a stroll with Irenicus."

Ah well, all I can do is ask you to either wait out till the mod is done, or if burning with impatience, take a stroll to the workroom You will have the great surprise to see that not only Jaheira, but a vast number of good NPCs go for Jon's throat after initial stupor has vanished.


Spoilers...hm.











So, thank you kindly for the suggestion and concern, but the outrage of good NPCs has already been implemented to a degree we feel is satisfactory, and I think you would too, since Jon gets attacked by at least 4 of them. I think of all of these, only Minsc is one who stays with the party after, if the PC can suitably convince him to stay.

Both Imoen and Jaheira face you with a 'me or him' choice imediatly after Jon's joining, and both dialogs have a 2/3 chance that you will lose the two ladies. I wish Drizzt got more of this kind of deus ex machina, I would have hated him less.


Spoilers End

[Merja]

and I think you would too, since Jon gets attacked by at least 4 of them. I think of all of these, only Minsc is one who stays with the party after, if the PC can suitably convince him to stay.

That doesn't seem to be what the remarkably discreet maidros is saying above about Jaheira...

Both Imoen and Jaheira face you with a 'me or him' choice imediatly after Jon's joining, and both dialogs have a 2/3 chance that you will lose the two ladies.

Random chance? Or only one of three (or three of nine) dialogue options is sufficient?

I wish Drizzt got more of this kind of deus ex machina, I would have hated him less.

You'd hate Drizzt less if he was a self-absorbed megalomaniacal killer whom the gods later foisted upon his victims to fix?

That doesn't seem to be what the remarkably discreet maidros is saying above about Jaheira...

Of course not. I -and I think Maidros as well- define NPC hostility towards Jon as attamt at conversation, and physical hostility as result of certain dialog options. I believe you define hostility as instant Enemy() after Jon joins party see? I learned something in the meanwhile!

So - Maidros is not saying Jaheira will not turn hostile, merely that she will not go berserk. I don't think going berserk can be reasonably expected from Jaheira, however.

Random chance? Or only one of three (or three of nine) dialogue options is sufficient?

Not random chance. I believe random chance would be unfair. Wise and intelligent PC may convince Jaheira to stay on after Jon's joining party, but will not be able to dissuade Jaheira from going for the evil one's jugular at a later date, if Jon is unduly stubborn. It is an action that is independant of PC's wishes, therefore fear no deus ex machina. Unless, like in typical FR deus ex machina plots Elminster himself appears and tells Jaheira not to kill Jon, a possibility I am very afraid of since the old guy has a knack of spawning everywhere. LOL, maybe there is a RandomCreateElminster action somewhere.

Kidding aside, if Jon stays eeeevil, Jaheira will go for his throat. Good of all the goodly folk, and frolick merrily on the paths of righteousness!

You'd hate Drizzt less if he was a self-absorbed megalomaniacal killer whom the gods later foisted upon his victims to fix?

Oi, LOL, that is a particularly wrong question to ask the leader of the "Evil Overlords for Equal Representation" club. You see, Merja does not distinguish between Jon and Drizzt, and thinks Drizzt is an evil, uncompromising, unsypathetic nitwit with dexterity 21, deprived of any sort of compassion towards his own blood. Hm, now that I think of it, not unlike Jon in cutting down his kin when they stand against him, not unlike Jon in being judgemental and self absorbed. Even worse then Jonny boy, el Drizzo is also a hypocrite who makes heartwrenching promises and goes back on them two hours later.

Also unlike Jon, Drizzt is helped oficially - as in mainstream writing - by a great assortment of Chosens, magical weapons +5, stinky dwarves, talking bears and wizards who hide their brains in their buttocks. Yet, I see no one contesting the 'believeable' quality of such writings. You see, if Jonny boy was Drizzt, the Seladarine could not have stripped him of his soul if he denied their power, just as Lloth cannot give Drizzt his eight legs because he denies her power. So - godly punishment works for one, and not the other.

And so, in direct answer to your question - yes, I would like Drizzt more if he was not a hypocritical bastard whose only good quality is his CG alignament. Be true to your evil self, and Merja will appreciate you. Be true to your good self, and Merja will appreciate you too. (would you guess I like Keldorn? I really do ) Ssspoken.

[Laufey]

I thank you for the tidbit, Merja, but I don't believe in the redemption so I'd merely be the devil's advocate, as it were. ..something neither of us needs to be subjected to on a continual basis. I'd be ...extremely disappointed if the other PC's didn't have plenty to say about Jon, but Jaheira.. I just can't see it.

Heh, it may interest you to learn that I also had serious doubts about Jaheira being able to put up with Jon in the party, and I told Dorotea as much at the time. However, from what I have seen so far of how she's handled it, I think it works. Of course, not everybody is likely to find it credible, but I can honestly tell you that it convinced me. And I don't say that because Dorotea is a friend of mine - if I didn't think it worked, I would tell her so.

[dorotea]

I don't think pointing out shortcomings or mischaracterizations is trolling.

Normally- neither would I. But lets say that my personal history with JC had me convinced that the last thing he cares in the discussion is helping anybody, or genuinely 'pointing out mischaracterizations'. I maybe mistaken, of course, but I think Rule #1 of any discussion is being polite to each other and actually listening to the other side.

[dorotea]

* Hi Sim, thanks for stopping by, I hope you will find this discussion at least entertaining.

Hmm? The end movie makes it quite clear that he's powerless. And even were that not the case, why would someone like Irenicus progress to being a demon prince?

Here is the Abyssal sourcebook. Among other things it deals with demons reproduction. Now , I am not saying this is what happens with every petitioner in the Abyss, but it is a quite possible scenario.

http://www.onlinefic..._pdfs/Abyss.pdf

** Domi -

I suggest we call it quits. You philosophy and views on suitable punishments for criminals, good and evil, love and hate, alignments are way too different from mine - our views cannot be reconciled, and to tell the truth, I have no desire to try anymore, as I cannot see it as very rewarding task anyway.

No disrespect meant - your opinion in every bit as valuable as mine and your writing/modding at its best had given me many moments of joy. But as you cannot see every living being as a 'work in progress' regardless of their curent state, so I cannot see anybody ever reaching the limit of vileness after which they cannot be turned around, similarly I cannot see any ultimately 'good' character stuck in their innate goodness forever and immune to making grave erros.

To each its own I say and leave you to thread your path in peace, and please leave me to mine - imperfect that I am.