397 replies to this topic

[dorotea]

A feeling of justice done and fairness restored, when a rapist or a murderer is punished is important. I do not give a damn about *his* soul - I want him to suffer for his crimes, not being tip-toed around.

Hmm - yes. I think that about sums up the discussion, as this 'fairness restored' brings me personally nothing but more sadness and a feeling of waste - now there is another life taken and there is no more hope for 'real' recompense. What I find so rewarding in RPG settings is the system of outer planes and concept of 'death after life' - ie finally a possibility to restore and repair things, not cause more damage. But to each its own I guess... It is amusing though that vengefulness is so often assosiated with 'goodness' (as in the only true 'good' is lawful good) whilst desire to fogive is considered to be the trait of 'evilly alligned'. I find it extremely ironic.

[jester]

@ dorotea and domi

I do not think your two standpoints of justice can ever be brought together. Guess it is 'Suum cuique' as dorotea said.

[jester]

And one thing is always true - human maids will sigh after elven men, despite their alignments.

*sigh*

[Sav]

So, what's the reason for this poll anyway? Is it just to get random talk going or are you thinking of redeeming more than just Irenicus... the mod is called 'Redemption' after all, not 'Irenicus's Redemption/Further Corruption.'

In order of who I think is most redeemable, from the list and not.. with/without reasons... Oh and note, I can't remember who Albert and Angelo were.. was Angelo Shar-Teel's dad and Albert the guy from the TOB trials?
1. Phaere - Was in love, can't get rid of the memory, I say.
2. Balthazar - IS redeemable in Ascension, but is Good anyway.
3. Irenicus - Tragic story, was tricked by Bodhi to doing what he did.
4. Sarevok - If swapped positions, could you be where Sarevok is now? (doesn't work for an evil character) Also, he can get redeemed anyway.
5. Illasaera - Fallen Ranger, had to be good at some point.
6. Yaga-Shura - Had a heart, got rid of it, grew up with a nice old witch. Problem is he's a Fire Giant, which are naturally Evil in DnD.
7. Abazigal and Sendai - I can't really see them being redeemed in any sense, but if the writing's good, I'll believe it. Also, what IS Abazigal's other Half? Half-Blue Dragon, Half-??? Sendai... maybe can just decide she wants to join an evil PC - appreciates his strength or something.
8. Tazok, he seems.. well.. not very nice, considering all he's done to Kivan, I doubt he'd be redeemable.
9. Melissan... not really developed enough for me to say anything about her. Just stick to killing her, she used to be a priestess of Bhaal anyway, so she's always been an evil bitch.

That, above, is if you wanted some to join the PC on his travels as he goes about his redeeming/saving the world/bhaalspawn quest.

Heh, thanks for the about my Nalia comment, jester. She's walking the road to corruption anyway, and I'm sure lots of NPCs state that to her, like Keldorn, maybe. It'd have been nice if you could talk her out of seeking all that power, because she ISN'T very wise and would probably fall for that Satan thing on the page before (She has 9 Wis).

Edit: Oh, eh, sorry about deceiving you maidros, I meant it more sarcastically than not. Maybe I shoulda put a at the end of my sentence.

About Phaere, redemption could be done by making her fall in love again, with 'Veldrin' maybe...

[dorotea]

So, what's the reason for this poll anyway? Is it just to get random talk going or are you thinking of redeeming more than just Irenicus... the mod is called 'Redemption' after all, not 'Irenicus's Redemption/Further Corruption.'

The reason was to get people to discuss their view on the topic of redeeming the villains from the BG series (and in more 'general' sense), and I think I was a success. I have no further plans for any more mods - BG/BG II or otherwise. I plan to finish Ashes, LR and Edwin Romance and retire from Baldurs Gate community. But by the time the 2 mods I am working on now will be done - things might change. I recently communicated with Dave Gaidar and he suggested that I learn the Aurora engine. I might, it sounds fun.

I am not planning to further corrupt Irenicus either, I don't think it is even possible. The Ashes plot follows the 'good' path of the Redemption/LR, because it is my personal preference. Still the LR will have the evil path (with few possible outcomes).

[jester]

Nice wrap-up, Sav. Let's see:

Requirements brought forth:

1. Must be able to spend enough time with the group to get time to develop and talk.
2. Must have the racial ability or at least a feasible reason to be 'redeemed' at all.
4. Must have a little room to maneuvre for a credible story.
3. Must have been good or (at least) neutral at some point .


Disqualified: Biff for forgetting his text, Sar and Jon for being in there already and Balth for not needing any


*Drumroll*



This leaves as our natural contestant:

Illasaera - a female archer (romance anyone?), what a nice addition

[Kish]

3. Irenicus - Tragic story, was tricked by Bodhi to doing what he did.

Oh, please. Joneleth wasn't a child or an imbecile, though I'm sure both Irenicus himself and Ellesime would love to pin all the blame for his actions on Bodhi.

Also, what IS Abazigal's other Half? Half-Blue Dragon, Half-???

God, of course.

9. Melissan... not really developed enough for me to say anything about her. Just stick to killing her, she used to be a priestess of Bhaal anyway, so she's always been an evil bitch.

Always? From the moment she was born?

[Sav]

ToB is too short for a detailed romance I think, unless you wanna talk every 5 seconds The game could be edited so she comes to find you earlier on in Chapter 2 or SoA or something, but there's the very big problem that you both have the same dad (if it was a romance that is).

Phaere is still a prime candidate for redemption, and there wouldn't be any arguments over incest in a romance with her, but not that I'm planning anything, it's all hypothetical.

Oh please, Kish, you know what I mean, you're just purposely being difficult. She must have chosen to be a priestess of Bhaal. If she didn't even want to, there's a chance for her to run away from that life, and she continued being evil after the ToT. You presume too much to try and get on my nerves, but I'm not getting into a debate on this, so before you start, leave it alone.

Isn't it the official story that Bodhi was the puppeteer pulling the strings behind both their exiles?

I didn't know God was a RACE. Well, shows what I know about DnD. But my point was that he seems to have a human form, and having three HALVES is impossible.

[jester]

With Phaere you could end up in a HD-Aerie situation.

Female romancing Sola - Phaere grumbling in the background
Male romancing Phaere - Sola gets very philosophical on your @$$
No romance - auld friends bitching in the back of the erm car and getting together again -egads-

[Kish]

Oh please, Kish, you know what I mean, you're just purposely being difficult.

If you call disagreeing with you "being difficult."

"She was evil before Bhaal died" is a much weaker argument than "she was always evil," but from her having been a Deathstalker you can support the former--not the latter.

She must have chosen to be a priestess of Bhaal. If she didn't even want to, there's a chance for her to run away from that life, and she continued being evil after the ToT. You presume too much to try and get on my nerves, but I'm not getting into a debate on this, so before you start, leave it alone.

I've always found people who "argue" by saying, "I'm right, shut up!"...extremely pathetic.

Isn't it the official story that Bodhi was the puppeteer pulling the strings behind both their exiles?

The official story? What's that? That's the story told by Ellesime, and by Demin (who certainly got her version from Ellesime). I am unaware of anything posted by a developer somewhere, or the like. There's also that line in Ascension where Bodhi comments that it's like Jon to blame her for his failings.

How likely is it that Joneleth was an innocent archmage who danced on Bodhi's puppet strings? Was Bodhi the best manipulator in the history of manipulation? Was Joneleth so stupid that it was as simple as winding him up and pointing him at the Tree of Life? Or is Joneleth, like most adults, responsible for his own actions and choices?

I didn't know God was a RACE. Well, shows what I know about DnD. But my point was that he seems to have a human form, and having three HALVES is impossible.

As do Firkraag and Adalon. It's not about halves--dragons can shapeshift. He could turn into a deer as easily as he turns into a human.

[dorotea]

I love Jaime Lannister to bits, but his redemption (a very well thought out and brilliantly written, mind you) still makes me cringe because it is done so heavily at the expence of villifing Cersei Lannister (yes, my very favorite incestual couple).

Grin. I've noticed your preference for blonde, power-hungry (but seemingly innocent and sweet), female characters. I suspected you would love Cersei - it is nice to hear the confirmation from your own mouth. And of course she is the character I absolutely abhore and loath and wish dead Should we even be surprised?


No, no - I have no desire to pick another fight this time. I just think Ellesime is very close to Cersei in her inner logic and motivations, at least her intonations, her deception of PC during both of the dream scenes, and her speech patterns sort of hint on this.

Addenum - there will be absolutely no 'blame shifting' in BGA. As I think that even if your queen and lover is a bitch - it does not excuse you from plotting to betray her and slaughter half of your relatives to 'punish' her.

[dorotea]

How likely is it that Joneleth was an innocent archmage who danced on Bodhi's puppet strings? Was Bodhi the best manipulator in the history of manipulation? Was Joneleth so stupid that it was as simple as winding him up and pointing him at the Tree of Life? Or is Joneleth, like most adults, responsible for his own actions and choices?

Oh - I think he was the brain behind the whole scheme. Bodhi does not strike me as even capable of thinking it out. Chuckle - to attack the symbol of elven longevity and drain it of power to become a God - this requires the level of daring and ambition that are simply beyond her primitive thinking.

She might have played a role in subtly pushing him in this direction - ie encouraging and displaying her admiration... but that is the only role I can see her play.

I have a very good plot (I think) for this part of Ashes (based on 'real' FR events in Tethyr 100 years or so prior to ToT) - let's see how well I will be able to implement it.

[Althernai]

Exactly. I disagree on vengeance btw. It brings satisfaction. A feeling of justice done and fairness restored, when a rapist or a murderer is punished is important. I do not give a damn about *his* soul - I want him to suffer for his crimes, not being tip-toed around.

Based on my experience in life so far, I would not say revenge brings satisfaction. Granted, I have never been subjected to a truly evil act (unless you count a robbery at knifepoint, which I don't since nothing of real value was stolen), but for all the little slights I've taken revenge for, the emotions always went as follows:

I feel angry and miserable. I do something to hurt the person who made me miserable. Now I no longer feel angry, but I'm still miserable and in addition to that, I feel bad about making someone else miserable.

This only happens in real life. In games, I am perfectly satisfied after I kill someone who betrayed me (e.g. Samia in Firkraag's lair). In fiction, many characters feel the same way as you do (incidentially, Martin is an exception).

[Althernai]

No, no - I have no desire to pick another fight this time. I just think Ellesime is very close to Cersei in her inner logic and motivations, at least her intonations, her deception of PC during both of the dream scenes, and her speech patterns sort of hint on this. 

Where do you get this from? Is there some dialogue I've missed in my 20 replays of BG2 that shows Ellesime to be a lying, scheming, power-hungry seductress? Or am I misreading Cersei?