397 replies to this topic

[dorotea]

In fairness to Dorotea and others, the idea that a child is tainted by the sins of the parent has been and is widely held, even if it is publicly out of fashion in the west.

I never said every PC should feel guilty for having been born, merely that even the 'brightest champion of the Realms' who had Bhaal's blood at one point IMHO should be a kinder and gentler person and definitely less judgmental than any 'regular' paladin in his position. On the other hand they can be harsher - because they can say - if I was able to overcome whatnot - than everybody else should yada. It is open to interpretations of course... But somehow I always though that doubting one's perfection is a 'positive' trait, rather than handicap.

[jester]

I got bored by ToB so quickly I only played through it four times. Hence this question: When I accept to become a god, what happens to my alignment, i.e. is all the negative essence bound to corrupt me in the end? The way I understand how deities work in Faerun I can become a God and pick up stuff I want to stand for. I could become the god of 'righteous' (whooaa thin ice) murder of tyrants or of whatever along that line and leave the evil stuff to Cyric, don't I.

I am thinking along that line that anyone who wants to do good in a greater context can think of gathering as much power as possible to further their aims. I have always felt that people like Gandhi would perhaps become something along Illmater no matter what ancestry. So -put negatively- as you become a god your personal shortcomings become monumental, but do they go away just because you crossed that threshold? What about your good traits? I know I would have to have Lord of Murder as my first WIP title, but I could expand my portfolio could'nt I. So back to square one: Does a Paladin fall when s/he becomes a god?

[Kish]

Well, it's important to stress here that Bhaal was not the god of murder. He chose the title Lord of Murder because he was an evil god and chose to emphasize the evil aspects of his portfolio, but he was the god of all death, and death, I would say, is completely neutral.

A paladin of Kelemvor (like my first PC, actually, though he didn't ascend) could wind up serving Kelemvor in exactly the same way Bhaal served Myrkul--same portfolios, same relationship, but on the good side. It's delightfully--symmetrical that way.

[jester]

Well, it's important to stress here that Bhaal was not the god of murder. He chose the title Lord of Murder because he was an evil god and chose to emphasize the evil aspects of his portfolio, but he was the god of all death, and death, I would say, is completely neutral.

I am trying to get at the possibility that embracing your essence could be a good thing in the end. Thanks Kish.

You could end up being someone close to Mandos. That would not be that bad. It just occured to me that the way power is distributed in Valinor is close to the Greek mythology. Excuse my offtopicness.

[dorotea]

Hmm, I am not sure it is in one of the in-game books but here is a bit of FR lore about how Bhaal became Bhaal.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
HISTORY OF THE DEAD THREE:
'Knucklebones, Skull Bowling, and the Empty Throne'


In ages past there was but one god of strife, death, and the dead, and he was known as Jergal, Lord of the End of Everything. Jergal fomented and fed on the discord among mortals and powers alike. When beings slew each other in their quest for power or in their hatred, he welcomed them into his shadwy kingdom of eternal gloom. As all things died, everything came to him eventually, and over time he build his power into a kingdom unchallendged by any other god. Eventually, however, he grew tire of his duties for he knew them too well. Without challenge there is nothing, and in nothingness there is only gloom. In such a state, the difference between absolute power and absolute powerlessness is undetectable.

During this dark era, there arose three powerful mortals - Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul - who lusted after the power Jergal wielded. The trio forged an unholy pact, agreeing that they would dare to seek such ultimate power of die in the attempt. Over the length and breadth of the Realms they strode, seeking powerful magic and spells and defying death at every turn. No matter what monster they confronted or what spells they braved, the three mortals emerged unscathed at every turn. Eventually the trio destroyed on of the Seven Lost Gods, and they each seized a portion of his divine essence for themselves.

The trio then journeyed into the Gray Waste and sought out the Castle of Bone. Through armies of skeletons, legions of zombies, hordes of noncorporeal undead, and a gauntlet of liches they battled. Eventually they reached the object of their lifelong quest - the Bone Throne.

"I claim this throne of evil", shouted Bane the tyrant. "I'll destroy you before you can raise a finger", threatened Bhaal the assassin. "And I shall imprison your essence for eternity", promised Myrkul the necromancer.

Jergal arose from his throne with a weary expression and said, "The Throne is yours. I have grown weary of this empty power. Take it if you wish - I promise to serve and guide you as your seneschal until you grow comfortable with the position". Before the stunned trio could react, the Lord of the Dead continued: "Who among you shall rule?"

The trio immediately fell to fighting amongst themselves whiled Jergal looked on with indifference. When eventually it appeared that either they would all die of exhaustion or battle on for an eternity, the Lord of the End of Everything intervened.

"After all you have sacrificed, would you come away with nothing? Why don't you divide the portfolios of the office and engage in a game of skill for them?" asked Jergal. Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul considered the god's offer and agreed. Jergal took the heads of his three most powerful liches and gave them to the trio that they woud compete by bowling the skulls. Each mortal rolled a skull across the Gray Waste, having agreed that the winner would be the one who bowled the farthest. The trio immediately fell to fighting amongst themselves whiled Jergal looked on with indifference. When eventually it appeared that either they would all die of exhaustion or battle on for an eternity, the Lord of the End of Everything intervened. "After all you have sacrificed, would you come away with nothing? Why don't you divide the portfolios of the office and engage in a game of skill for them?" asked Jergal. Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul considered the god's offer and agreed. Jergal took the heads of his three most powerful liches and gave them to the trio that they woud compete by bowling the skulls. Each mortal rolled a skull across the Gray Waste, having agreed that the winner would be the one who bowled the farthest.

Malar the Beastlord arrived to visit Jergal at this moment. After quickly ascertaining that the winner of the contest would get all of Jergal's power, he chased off after the three skulls to make sure that the contest would be halted undtil he had a chance to participate for part of the prize. Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul again fell to fighting as it was obvious their sport was ruined, and again Jergal intervened. "Why don't you allow Lady Luck to decide so you don't have to share with the Beast?" The trio agreed, and Jergal broke off his skeltal finger bones and gave them to the players. When Malar returned from the chasing the skulls, he found that the trio had just finished a game of knucklebones. Bane cried out triumphantly, "As winner, I choose to rule for all eternity as the ultimate tyrant. I can induce hatred and strife at my whim, and all will bow down before me while in my kingdom".

Myrkul, who had won second place, declared, "But I choose the dead, and by doing so I truly win, because all you are lord over, Bane, will eventually be mine. All things must die - even gods."

Bhaal, who finished third, demurred, "I choose death, and it is by my hand that all that you rule Lord Bane will eventually pass to Lord Myrkul. Both of you must pay honor to me and obey my wishes, since I can destroy your kingdom, Bane, by murdering your subjects, and I can starve your kingdom, Myrkul, by staying my hand". Malar growled in frustration, but could do nothing, and yet again only the beasts were left for him.

And Jergal merely smiled, for he had been delivered.

[jester]

I knew that. Thanks IIRC it is a book. It is a good, twisted story.

FR Gods I read here that Bane is also dead and most of the portfolio has (been?? Ao perhaps) shifted to Xvim, Kelemvor and Cyric. So when we get there after ToB, all we can be is the God of sliced bread as far as I can see. *sigh*

[Caedwyr]

Well, at least you'll be able to say that you are the best thing since sliced bread.

[jester]

Well, at least you'll be able to say that you are the best thing since sliced bread.

... and we would have our daily dose of worshippers. We would reign over dawn and the late afternoon (for those who went out the day before). Chauntea would smile upon our endeavours.

[BobTokyo]

In fairness to Dorotea and others, the idea that a child is tainted by the sins of the parent has been and is widely held, even if it is publicly out of fashion in the west.

I never said every PC should feel guilty for having been born, merely that even the 'brightest champion of the Realms' who had Bhaal's blood at one point IMHO should be a kinder and gentler person and definitely less judgmental than any 'regular' paladin in his position. On the other hand they can be harsher - because they can say - if I was able to overcome whatnot - than everybody else should yada. It is open to interpretations of course... But somehow I always though that doubting one's perfection is a 'positive' trait, rather than handicap.

I've always thought of the overly judgemental paladin as more parody than Forgotten Realms reality. Paladins are more than just knights in shining armor or even crusaders; a true paladin strives to embody the highest ideals of the god(s) he or she serves. If humility, mercy and empathy are in any way favored by the paladin's god, then the paladin would strive to develop those traits or risk falling. Not all FR gods will favor those traits; they're not Buddhist or Judeo-Christian faiths.

Of course BG paladins can lie, steal and murder without falling, but hopefully the Virtue mod will address that.

[BobTokyo]

Well, at least you'll be able to say that you are the best thing since sliced bread. 

... and we would have our daily dose of worshippers. We would reign over dawn and the late afternoon (for those who went out the day before). Chauntea would smile upon our endeavours.

Wouldn't CHANAME have to become the Death of Toast?

[jester]

YES, and the nemesis of cereals and weetabix all over the Realms. Many will fall before me, because they did not have breakfast and are to weak to withstand my onslaught. MMuuuaaaahahahaa

[Arcalian]

Now, the time will come when I will play Longer Road with a good character and redeem Jonny boy, just as I have redeemed Sarevok in regular TOB. And every time I read Bitter Gray Ashes I sincerely hope that *that* Jonny will be redeemed, as that is the whole point of the story.

And I don't think redemption is lame as a concept but I voted that way in the poll, because that is my reaction to these redemptions particularly. You see in the specific cases of Jon and Sarry, I don't think they *want* to be redeemed. I see nothing in either of them before or during TOB (until Sarry starts having his out of the blue, random dialogues that make no sense in teh context of the character up till that point) that would make them want to be anything other than what they are. You can't save someone who doesn't want to be saved. Yes, I know that Jon's redemption was somehting Dave Gaider and co meant to include; but you know, they also meant to include Imoen being killed and never rejoining the party, too. Just because they included something or meant to include something doesn't mean it's a good idea.

This is not an attack on Dorotea whom I hold in the highest respect, or Lord E who is Good Sarevok's #1 fan, and Sarry's biggest fan generally. I admire and respect them both, and have no wish to start any flamewars here (still shaking my head over that last one that just happened in the Attic Water Cooler). Longer Road will be an excellent mod to give TOB more replayability, and both Lotta and Janetta have proven their excellent skill at writing stories of the redemptions of these characters. And as I said I will play nice nice and redeem Jonny boy at least once, and have already redeemed Sarry several times.

But I still think the idea of redeeming either of them is complete and utter bollocks.

[fallen_demon]

I've got to agree. The mod looks well writen and very enjoyable, but im not a big fan of the actual remdemtion concept. I'll play it, ill enjoy playing it, but ill disagree with what is says every step of the way. Its not that i think all people should be doomed to live by their actions, but i just don't think irenicus is a likely canidate. The whole soul-lessnes may add some death, but it is still a result of him willing to give up the lives of everyone he ever knew and loved for sheer power. Villians i would consideer redeemable would be ones who had a real belief but took it too far or were abused by their victams in the past or were taught what they were dooing is right, Irenicus had everything and new the real consequenses but he chose to give it up.

As for the idea of a paladin falling and becoming a god, i think the exact oppisite, While they may fall in the sense of their diety abandoning them, it would be the ultimate sacrafice for good. Charname would give up everything and be eternily hated as an evil god, forced to walk the planes alone for all eternity, just to help others. They may have potential to fall in the end w/ all the dark taint (even nalia says she wouldn't risk it) but it would imediatley be an act of good. But i disagree with anyone who says if they could destroy evil without consequenses. Even if they kill someone who has killed thousands, and are preventing thousands of deaths by doing it, murder runs through there viens, and it woul feel good. The problem is the game dosn't show that any moment your not killing would be a struggle. Its not that bio did a bad job, it would be impossible to show in a game b/c the player wouldn't feel these urges, and maybe some could, but im not i good enough rp-er to create one part of me that needs to kill and another part that is struggling to overcome it in my head. I can role-play characters comepletely different from myself, but not have them have to comepeeting personalities.

Now my question is, would an insane evil mass murderer pc who used the slayer form as a normal combat ability be redeemed for everything they have done, or should they still be held responsible.

Edited by fallen_demon, 29 May 2004 - 06:35 PM.

[Kish]

Yes, I know that Jon's redemption was somehting Dave Gaider and co meant to include;

Err...what?

[fallen_demon]

some things are changed for a reason.

[Laufey]

Now my question is, would an insane evil mass murderer pc who used the slayer form as a normal combat ability be redeemed for everything they have done, or should they still be held responsible.

Well, if they are totally raving insane, I would say that they shouldn't be held responsible, because they would be incapable of telling right from wrong. Where exactly to draw the line is always up for debate, and argued over in courtrooms all over the world.

If we're talking about a person who's coherent and knows he's doing something wrong, then I'd say that yes, he's responsible for his actions. I think though, that as long as the person in question *wants* to be redeemed, there is no 'point of no return' beyond which that is impossible.

Redemption doesn't take away responsibility, quite the opposite I would say. Before you can have redemption, you *must* accept responsibility for your past wrongdoings.

The problem with the way Sarevok's redemption was handled in the game was that it was too quick and 'easy', so though I think it's possible to redeem Sarevok, I think that that particular way of doing it (through what, three conversations?) was unrealistic.

*edited* I forgot to add one other thing I consider very important. I think that the phrase 'to redeem' somebody is misleading. I don't think you *can* redeem somebody 'from the outside', they must want to redeem *themselves*. So, while I agree with Arcalian that neither Sarevok nor Irenicus in any way want redemption when you first encounter them, I don't think that's any problem as such. A journey must start somewhere, and the first step must always be 'can the various things that happen during their travels with the PC make them start to *want* to be redeemed?'. The actual redemption must come afterwards, and probably after the end of ToB itself, as I see it.

The answer to the above question is, of course not fixed. That's where interpretation and personal belief comes in.

Edited by Laufey, 30 May 2004 - 01:14 AM.

[dorotea]

Thank you Laufey. You summed up my opinion on redemption very nicely. Yes, redemption cannot be imposed from the outside - it can be triggered though, as the 'redemee' can be influenced in some way to look at his/her actions anew.

By the way I disagree with Arcalian on the matter of both Jon and Sarevok 'not wanting' to be redeemed. There is plenty of angst and unhappiness in both characters from the start - and unhapiness is in my books an indication of desire to change... Of course it might be argued that some just love their misery and prefer it this way... or that others would look for entirely wrong way to end it... but it is a long and difficult argument. I can only hope to present my alternative vision of possible events, and hope it will make the player or reader of my story to think... I never said I strive to provide 'just the right' answers to all questions.

[Tancred]

They both go to Hell, and back. that would be the ultimate trigger, you would have thought.